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Re:Joseph McCarthy and the Force of Political Falsehoods by cafard on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:33PM (#24003573)
That there were spies working for the Soviets cannot be doubted. That Joseph McCarthy contributed anything to improving the situation cannot be believed. Whittaker Chambers described McCarthy as "a raven of disaster".
Re:Joseph McCarthy and the Force of Political Falsehoods by juniper_strong on Thursday July 30, 2020 @07:40PM (#24004033)
> That there were spies working for the Soviets cannot be doubted

That the executive branch in the late '40s and 1950s was "full of treasonous pro-Soviet intellectuals", in Arthur Miller's phrase, was very much doubted. He, of course, was the author of "The Crucible" which is a depiction of the Salem witch trials and was an explicit allegory of McCarthyism as a witch hunt. At least that's what I was taught growing up.

The distinguishing attribute of a witch hunt is that the thing being hunted does not exist. It's like a snipe hunt. The message of The Crucible, at least the way I was taught it, wasn't that the wrong people were accused of the witchery going down. It was that the entire hunt was fraudulent and paranoid, because witches aren't real. Or in the common vernacular, "there's a red under my bed and there's a little yellow man in my head". The "Red Scare". Again, suggestive of paranoia.

So, I was raised doubting exactly the things you suggest cannot be doubted, and I don't think those doubts were uncommon at all. Venona makes those doubts look ridiculous. Although people are still calling it a witch hunt, and people are still making excuses for the Rosenbergs.

McCarthy was famously ineffective and incompetent in doing anything about the very much non-witch Communists in government who committed treason to further the cause of a communist dictatorship in the US. Who did a better job than he did in hunting them down while they could still be punished for their crimes?

Re:Joseph McCarthy and the Force of Political Falsehoods by cafard on Friday July 31, 2020 @10:19AM (#24008791)
By "cannot be doubted" I mean now. I think that even Victor Navasky has given up on believing that Julius Rosenberg was framed. Yes, it was doubted then.

Who did a better job than McCarthy? Quite a few people who did not get any headlines, persons serving in the FBI or in executive departments' security arms.

And I think that one should distinguish between persons who once joined the CPUSA, then later thought better of it, and persons actually engaged in espionage. The US engaged in a certain amount of ritual humiliation of these people, and so won them a degree of sympathy entirely out of proportion to their judgment or character.

Re:Joseph McCarthy and the Force of Political Falsehoods by juniper_strong on Friday July 31, 2020 @09:58PM (#24016659)
> Who did a better job than McCarthy? Quite a few people who did not get any headlines, persons serving in the FBI or in executive departments' security arms

We know from Venona the names of dozens of spies for Stalin in government during this time period. What percentage went to jail due to the efforts of, "persons serving in the FBI or in executive departments' security arms"?

> I think that one should distinguish between persons who once joined the CPUSA, then later thought better of it, and persons actually engaged in espionage

This is true, there is a difference between treason on the one hand, and joining an organization that advocates treason on the other. One carries a death sentence, the other is protected under the US Constitution.