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Re:Del.icio.us by organsnyder on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @08:00AM (#23985676)
Hard to tell without context, but that first example could easily be a positive: not only is extending grace to employees ethically a good thing to do, but it can also lead to increased productivity in the long run.

Of course, if the employee was completely MIA for an extended period of time and no effort was made to contact them, that's neither ethical nor productive.

Re:Del.icio.us by tarunkotia on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @09:04AM (#23986173)
The point of being nice it seems that people were not repremended for bad behavior. That’s not a good thing for the culture because it’s demotivating for people who do things the right way as there is very little incentive in doing so.
Re:Del.icio.us by ansible on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @09:50AM (#23986618)
People in general are hugely sensitive to perceived unfairness. This is a critical thing to maintain in any organization.

For example, you can take a group of five billionaires. Give the first four a little tax break for something, which totals up to only be a million each. No big deal, right? All these people are the 1% of the 1% of the 1%, the pinnacle of wealth in the world. There's no way that little tax break would prevent the 5th billionaire from buying the private island he always wanted, or whatever.

In practice, though, that 5th billionaire will be pissed he didn't also get the tax break. He will spend a lot of time either angry at the situation, or spending that time also trying to get a tax break. Is that a good use of his time? He would be happier driving around on his 80ft yacht... if he could focus on that instead. But that's not how our brains are wired.

Re:Del.icio.us by bshacklett on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @10:06AM (#23986801)
It's not just humans. This behavior seems to go pretty deep: https://phys.org/news/2017-02-animals-unfairly-dont.html
Re:Del.icio.us by _jal on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @10:42AM (#23987174)
The cool thing is that cheat detection/unfairness detection seems to happen at the semantic level of reasoning. You can see this with kids - one example I recall is a friend's 5 year old being upset at seeing another kid with ice cream. $Parent said it was that kid's birthday (who knows), and her kid immediately got over it.

So if only billionaires were human, we could just suggest their semantic categories were wrong. <rimshot>

Re:Del.icio.us by 0xdeadbeefbabe on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @12:39PM (#23988706)
Maybe something about a previous life?
Re:Del.icio.us by jaifraic on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @11:57PM (#23994489)
I'm fairly sure "it's their birthday, so they get a tax break" won't work.
Re:Del.icio.us by xmprt on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:29AM (#23995858)
Are we sure? Maybe no one has tried yet...
Re:Del.icio.us by snthd on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @06:31PM (#23992307)
Re:Del.icio.us by flingo on Thursday July 30, 2020 @05:34AM (#23996200)
> He will spend a lot of time either angry at the situation, or spending that time also trying to get a tax break.

It is a good financial decision to spend up to "$1M * <odds of success>" to get that tax break, or another better one. (especially if the ~$500K spent on retainered-lawyers sets you up to pay less due to future tax hikes.) Economics gets weird when any of the numbers get really big, or really small.

I don't like this example though, as it doesn't detail why the tax break was so specific. Did 4/5 of them have no taxable income that year? Do all of these billionaires live in a despotic-shithole where the rule of law doesn't apply equally to everyone? (to be fair, most billionaires do. /s)

Re:Del.icio.us by tripzilch on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:33AM (#23997339)
It's a good financial decision for a business that is supposed to maximise profit for shareholders or employees or something.

But this example is not about that. First to answer your last question, it's the despotic shithole kind. The point being, the reason is completely arbitrary.

This is about a billionaire who can already buy whatever they want, regardless of said tax break. It won't make them directly happier because it doesn't allow them to buy anything they couldn't otherwise buy.

The point of the example is that given this is the case, we still have a built in biological desire for "fairness" and if this billionaire would realise and observe this desire having no logical basis, they would not fight it. (assume fighting it is not as enjoyable to spend their limited life time as they could be doing something else with the money they already have)

In an analogous situation, five people go to a fancy restaurant and for some reason four of them get 10 plates of food, and one gets 9 plates of food. Assume the restaurant is so generous one person can't possibly eat more than 2 plates anyway.

Why is it easier to imagine simply not making a big deal out of it and enjoying your meal(s), in this situation?

(Especially considering that the meal example is 100x more unfair)

Re:Del.icio.us by kbutler on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @03:53PM (#23990881)
While I agree this is common human nature, 1) you seem to be speculating about billionaires without actual evidence, even anecdotal, and 2) individuals differ - some may have the maturity and perspective not to worry about it.

However, in support of your point, while Bill Gates and Warren Buffett both say billionaires and other "better off" people should pay more taxes, to my knowledge, they haven't been unilaterally sending checks to the government for the difference between current taxes and their ideal amount. They seem to believe that their private foundation can make better use of their excess money than the government can. They're willing to advocate additional taxes for groups, rather than just for themselves.

Re:Del.icio.us by seankimdesign on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @04:17PM (#23991113)
Let's replace the term "billionaires" with "rational actors" then
Re:Del.icio.us by kbutler on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:04AM (#23994549)
"emotional actors"
Re:Del.icio.us by eloff on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @06:45PM (#23992397)
What kind of idiot pays more than they owe in taxes? I'm sure you don't either.

I don't know why some people seem to expect that of billionaires. It's not rational behavior for them or anyone else, so why do you think they should be behaving that way.

I've seen this more than a couple times in HN comments and it always befuddled me.

Re:Del.icio.us by kbutler on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @11:52PM (#23994459)
I don't think they should pay more than they owe, and I'm not sure why you interpreted it that way. (Though I have paid more than I'm required to sometimes because of the pain of dealing with records and filing. Struggle with it until it gets to an acceptable level, then just pay to be done with it).

But Gates and Buffett both say that they SHOULD be paying more in taxes - but they don't. So what they're really saying is, all those other guys (the "well off") should pay more, and then they'd pay more, too.

This supports the original poster's contention that the billionaires would seek that tax break (for "fairness") even if they didn't need it.

Re:Del.icio.us by robertlagrant on Friday July 31, 2020 @12:06PM (#24010093)
> So what they're really saying is, all those other guys (the "well off") should pay more, and then they'd pay more, too.

The well off don't pay much tax, and they will probably pay none at the top end (they'll donate to charity, for example, which they work at, and the charity will fly them around to their meetings, pay for accommodation, etc). Generally it's the middle class who end up paying tax until it's not worth working any harder.

Re:Del.icio.us by eloff on Thursday July 30, 2020 @02:47PM (#24001600)
Reading it again, I think I must have missed "However, in support of your point" which changes the meaning.
Re:Del.icio.us by mbay on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @09:35PM (#23993415)
marginal utility is much higher for the government (and the public) than for you
Re:Del.icio.us by kbutler on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @11:59PM (#23994507)
I think that statement is backwards.

Are you asserting that the government (and the public) will get more utility (benefit) from the extra 1 dollar on its $2.7 billion budget (increase of .000 000 04 percent), than I would from the extra dollar in my net annual income (on the order of a thousandth of a percent)?

That's a pretty incredible contention.

Re:Del.icio.us by webmaven on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:50PM (#24002202)
On a per-dollar basis, you indeed get more marginal utility from the extra dollar than the government would.

But on a percentage basis (in a progressive taxation scheme, and especially in the higher tax brackets) the government gets more marginal utility from a 1% tax increase than you would from a 1% tax break.

Re:Del.icio.us by kbutler on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:33PM (#24004418)
Nope.

In any bracket and at any percentage, the government will be adding $x to it's huge budget by taking $x from an individual or organization's much smaller budget.

(* Note that it really isn't valid to compare marginal utility between entities. It's an individual, relative measure, rather than an absolute quantity.)

Re:Del.icio.us by nikhizzle on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @10:17AM (#23986911)
The employee was taking off days without taking vacation to work on hobbies without telling HR or Management. He was just not showing up. This happened with many employees all the time.
Re:Del.icio.us by idlewords on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @01:45PM (#23989548)
My coworker at a Yahoo office in SF moved to Uruguay (where his wife is from) and then expected the company to fly him in for important meetings. He got away with it for a bit before HR caught wind. Even for them it was too much.
Re:Del.icio.us by HappyDreamer on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @03:42PM (#23990770)
He got fired? Or moved back to SF?
Re:Del.icio.us by prepend on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @04:05PM (#23990978)
Judging by the other stories I expect HR cracking down would be something “no more first class flights, only business.”
Re:Del.icio.us by ghaff on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @05:21PM (#23991730)
HR's issue was probably more along the lines of you're violating internal policies and probably various tax, etc. laws if you're supposedly living in one place and are actually living somewhere else--especially in a different country.
Re:Del.icio.us by idlewords on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @04:54PM (#23991497)
He reluctantly moved back after his boss got yelled at.
Re:Del.icio.us by vidarh on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @01:09PM (#23989094)
Makes me feel like a chump for not taking advantage when I worked there.
Re:Del.icio.us by thinkingkong on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @08:40AM (#23985981)
What kind of increase in productivity does just not showing up provide? People should be able to take sick days, personal days, mental health days, but disappearing should have raised concern from team members to see if that person is OK.
Re:Del.icio.us by bitslayer on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @08:56AM (#23986095)
Management could have been aware of more personal details that coworkers should not know. I don't think it is necessarily a black mark against the company without knowing the whole story.
Re:Del.icio.us by prepend on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @04:19PM (#23991127)
Management could also communicate to concerns coworkers that the absences are excused. They could also work with the employee to notify teammates in an appropriate way.

Just allowing employees to disappear with no notice or trace is an environment where I won’t want to work.

There are obviously situations where I have to not be at work suddenly (eg, medical emergency where I don’t want to share details) but I can just send a text to a boss or corworker and have them do the rest.

If HR said they didn’t want to act to not hurt feelings that seems like there was no additional info, unless they thought that was a proper way to protect medical info (it isn’t).

Sounds like a bad place to work and seems like a negative factor for companies wanting to do well or me awesome.

Re:Del.icio.us by greyhair on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @09:17AM (#23986288)
You can never be to certain what other people are dealing with outside of work. Sometimes, management knows things that they are not at liberty to share.
Re:Del.icio.us by jointpdf on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @03:35PM (#23990723)
Exactly. There are a vast number of incapacitating health related reasons that could cause a person to be absent, e.g. panic attacks, stuck in a bathroom (IBS/IBD/Chron’s), migraines, depression. The type of thing that reasonably wouldn’t be broadcasted out to the entire team.

I think it’s better to just assume nothing unless you have direct knowledge that the employee is doing something blatantly unethical like working at another job (has happened before).

Re:Del.icio.us by skywhopper on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @06:44PM (#23992389)
I’m guessing corporate or team policies about requesting time off may have been too restrictive. Depending on the team, having people take random days off on short notice might not be all that disruptive. But hopefully management enables that for everyone, rather than just forgiving it on a case by case basis.
Re:Del.icio.us by purple-again on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @08:38AM (#23985950)
Seems highly probable HR knew what was going on and was okay with it. Child died recently. Only one driving father to chemo appointments. Etc. not the kind of thing they would give any other employees a heads up on.

It would be very strange if they had no idea and didn’t care that an employee wasn’t showing up. That kind of culture would get swamped fast.

Re:Del.icio.us by vidarh on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @01:18PM (#23989198)
Yahoo was good at handling these types of things, but they were also good at keeping line management updated.

I did have someone in my team at Yahoo I had to go to HR to get approval for special considerations due to a family member with cancer, and it was approved literally in minutes.

But it's also well known that they were for a while very lax about handling unauthorised absence.

Re:Del.icio.us by glenstein on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @10:20AM (#23986940)
>Seems highly probable HR knew what was going on and was okay with it. Child died recently. Only one driving father to chemo appointments. Etc. not the kind of thing they would give any other employees a heads up on.

Is this based on direct knowledge or are you just listing possible examples? Because these examples are very different from what the ex-yahoo person mentioned in a follow-up comment: stuff like personal hobbies.