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Re:Hiring Without Whiteboards by perl4ever on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @09:56PM (#23982751)
You are making a point that many others have made, and it makes me unhappy to see it yet again.

What you are saying in effect, is that hiring regimes can't be (or ought not to be) designed to include a group that is (commonly) discriminated against, if that discriminates against anyone, particularly the majority.

Implicitly, I see you defining the optimum as where everyone uses the same criteria that are as inclusive as possible, and just shrugging and saying "we're doing our best" when some are left out in the cold completely.

But isn't there an alternative vision where the optimum is employers using different ("diverse") sets of criteria that individually discriminate but create a society where there's a place for everyone?

Re:Hiring Without Whiteboards by NikolaNovak on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @09:56AM (#23986696)
Hmmm; I feel you are making some interesting and valid points, and I would like to engage in a conversation; but I am (genuinely) having trouble articulating/parsing what they are. I don't know if you are trying to be diplomatic if the message may not be politically correct, or are the key points very generalized and lean more toward implication/insinuation; or whether it's a philosophy-textbook-style language and I just lack experience in it to parse generically-sounding words in a specific-context-meaning.

My best effort:

* Who/what is the group you feel is a "commonly discriminated group", that would benefit from "contract first" hiring practices?

* If a company uses a practice that "discriminates against a majority", is that a practically beneficial funnel/sieve/practice for the company? Alternatively, if we are discussing companies which are making a stand / moral decision through hiring practices, I feel that's a very different discussion than what I interpreted original poster to posit as "best hiring practice for everybody in all situations / everybody should do THIS".

* I feel your last sentence is proposing each employer using different criteria in hope that cumulatively they'd create an overlapping and comprehensive venn diagram. My response to that notion would be a) I don't trust either free markets or regulation to make that venn diagram complete and b) that kind of stratification of the market sounds horrible... no matter what, I can only go to specific companies who have specific hiring practices that happen to match me? (I fully understand the irony in that this may in fact be the underlying unspoken reality of the market! my point is that it should be something we move away from, not explicitly design as a goal).

But again, I may be misinterpreting your argument and inadvertently taking discussion in the wrong direction...

Re:Hiring Without Whiteboards by perl4ever on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @11:52AM (#23988087)
>trying to be diplomatic if the message may not be politically correct

Not exactly; whether my message is politically correct depends on how you generalize it and what groups you apply it to.

You could use it selectively in other contexts and demonstrate either a left or right wing allegiance, but right here and now, I'm talking about people suited to whiteboarding vs. take home tests as the groups.

>that kind of stratification of the market sounds horrible

It's what we've got though, and always have. In your words, "the underlying...reality". Of course we agree things can be improved somehow. I think hiring should be more inclusive, and I think most people would at least give lip service to that.

But if different people are always going to be different, then a hypothetical convergence on a single "fair" standard means telling some fraction of the population they have no place in society at all.

Eliminating whiteboarding, strictly speaking, seems reasonable to object to. It would be unfairly discriminatory. But wanting that to be the only standard also is an extremist position.

If you want to draw a more general opinion out of what I wrote, one of the things on my mind is the general scourge of optimization by tech people who assume the solution to anything is to find the one best answer based on some metric.