I can't speak for Portland, but I have seen the SPD instigate violence on numerous occasions, against peaceful protests. In those instances, including in the time leading up to the violence - nobody was throwing anything at the police lines, nobody was destroying property - until the police started chucking flash and gas grenades and firing less-lethal bullets into crowds. (Which have all, by the way, been outlawed by city council - yet the police department is still using them.)

That is not how every Seattle protest has gone, but that's how many of them have - many during the day (Although a few turned that way at night, as well).

You know what I meant. There's plenty of video evidence of brutality on one side (again: literally tear gas, impact munitions and billy clubs every night for two months!) and a flood of highly spun "well, it's sorta like violence" on the other (laser pointers, fireworks, cutting fences, "they're holding shields"). I can see what I see. You can too. So why the insistence that "we don't know"? We know.