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Re:Afghan opium growers have switched to solar power by bryanlarsen on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:38AM (#23965478)
There's no need for baseline power in any power grid. The only type of power needed is peak power. You could run a grid on 100% natural gas peaker plants. The only reason to add baseline or intermittent power is if they're cheaper than the peaker plants or have some other advantage like being more green.
Re:Afghan opium growers have switched to solar power by hnick on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:13AM (#23972218)
Yeah the base load debate seems to often get supply and demand mixed up. It's actually supply driven (old power plants are slow to start and stop and want a number to run at without wasting too much money).

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-10-12/renewable-ene...

"Technology has moved on from base load, and now you want flexible power. And that's what demand management, batteries and pumped hydro is," says Professor Andrew Blakers, director of the ANU Centre for Sustainable Energy Systems.

"If you have an increase in demand, a coal power station will take hours [to meet it], a gas turbine 20 to 30 minutes, batteries about a second, demand management about a second, and pumped hydro will take anywhere between 20 seconds and two minutes."

Re:Afghan opium growers have switched to solar power by Akronymus on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:48AM (#23965565)
I meant environmentally independent power sources as being baseline power. Probably bad wording on my part.

You can not guarantee, no matter the capacity of power storage, that you never produce too little power over a long enough period.

This is the basis of my opinion that the closer to 100% renewable you get the faster the amount of additional capacity you need rises.

Something like 1/x over-provisioning[1] needed, where x is the percentage of environmentally independent power sources.

[1] Not sure if that is the right word.

Re:Afghan opium growers have switched to solar power by bryanlarsen on Monday July 27, 2020 @11:06AM (#23965796)
Conventional plants need to be over-provisioned too, because of the possibility that one or more plants have a malfunction and have to shut down, possibly during a period of high load.

Put another way, it's probably more likely that they'll be some sort of equipment malfunction than we go an entire month with no wind.

Providing redundancy through independent mechanism (over-provisioning, storage, diverse sources) helps a lot.

But you're right. A grid that's 99% renewable with a natural gas peaker providing that last 1% will be a lot cheaper than a grid that's 100% renewable.

Re:Afghan opium growers have switched to solar power by ourlordcaffeine on Monday July 27, 2020 @03:11PM (#23968350)
Working in that industry, my eyes roll whenever I see someone talk about "baseline" power.

You are right in that there is no such thing as "baseline" generation really. And thermal plants also need to be over-provisioned.

There is dispatchable and non dispatchable power, the former being plants that can alter output on demand.

Base-load is the point which the 24 hour cycle of demand doesn't go below. It's pretty much just a number.

Who occupies the base of the generation stack and will stay running during low demand, is the one who is cheapest. If wind is cheaper than nuclear, it will displace nuclear. The people who say "IMO we need nuclear for baseline and renewable for peaking" completely miss these facts.

The way it is going is renewable at the base of the stack and dispatchable power filling in the gaps, be that during peak or periods of low renewable output.

Re:Afghan opium growers have switched to solar power by cbmuser on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:00PM (#23970407)
> The way it is going is renewable at the base of the stack and dispatchable power filling in the gaps, be that during peak or periods of low renewable output.

Very good idea to run gas plants with 490 grams CO2 per kWh instead of nuclear power plants with 12 grams CO2 per kWh, indeed.

France produces 50 grams of CO2 per kWh while Germany has 400 grams on average:

> https://www.electricitymap.org/

Your ideal model for producing electricity actually hurts the environment as the times where gas plants need to run are much more often than you think.

Re:Afghan opium growers have switched to solar power by bryanlarsen on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:13AM (#23975967)
"dispatchable power" doesn't necessarily mean gas, it could mean storage.
Re:Afghan opium growers have switched to solar power by ourlordcaffeine on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:43AM (#24061322)
Also nuclear is only weakly dispatchable, something the comment you replied to misses. So it is not suitable for filling the gaps.

A 100% nuclear grid will need dispatchable peak power as well, be it gas or storage.

Re:Afghan opium growers have switched to solar power by cbmuser on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:57PM (#23970390)
> There's no need for baseline power in any power grid.

Go to smard.de, check "Market data visuals" and "Electricity consumption->Actual consumption" and you will be presented with the baseline which is never below 40 GWh in Germany at any hour.

Re:Afghan opium growers have switched to solar power by bryanlarsen on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:02PM (#23971195)
Sure, baseline demand exists. But I'm talking about supply. If you have a system that can supply 120GWh at any time then it can also supply 40GWh at all times. If it can't supply 40GWh at all times then it obviously can't supply 120GWh at any time.