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Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by alexpetralia on Thursday July 16, 2020 @11:36AM (#23860042)
Do you have any sense of how people are managing?

I sort of assumed that people _must_ be receiving money because there's no way Americans in the lower deciles of savings would be able to pay their bills consistently without work or stimulus. If there's no stimulus and no work, how are they paying bills? Is it on credit? Was there actually some savings?

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by paulmd on Thursday July 16, 2020 @11:47AM (#23860176)
Roughly 1 in 3 american households are behind on their housing payments.

Most states (and all federally backed mortgages) have temporarily suspended evictions so the short answer is that people in financial distress dropped that expense, which is usually the single largest on most people's budgets (for low-income people this can often be 50% or more of take-home depending on the city - yes, the rule of thumb is that it shouldn't be higher than 25% but you simply can't find affordable housing in a lot of areas).

However that one eventually is going to come due because the federal mortgage eviction moratorium doesn't prevent you from going in default on your mortgage, it only prevents evictions. The 3-month timer is still running and as soon as the moratorium on evictions is lifted, they can kick you out immediately. So as soon as that lets up in a month or two there's going to be a massive surge in evictions in states that do not go out of their way to keep evictions suspended.

(and in fact this is probably a snowballing problem, the longer this crisis goes unchecked and the worse the economic pain gets, the more people that will be in default and the bigger the difficulty of getting "back to normal". Furthermore at some point that shit starts rolling back uphill economically, banks turned your mortgage into financial products and you not paying is cutting off the income of someone else, and in fact there is an eventual risk of a 2008-style crisis occurring on top of all the current problems if we get into a situation where people are defaulting en-masse.)

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by _wldu on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:07PM (#23860371)
Almost 40% of homes in America are owned free and clear (no mortgage). https://www.forbes.com/sites/brendarichardson/2019/07/26/nea...
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by mjayhn on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:46PM (#23860790)
I'm not sure what you're trying to really portend here but this is a huge, huge part of that article considering it's almost the entirety of the current working class parents;

Sixty-eight percent of adults 70 and older are mortgage-free, while 15.9% of Millennials are free and clear of mortgage payments.

I'm in my mid-30s and I hardly have any friends that own houses and if they do they're tech workers with decades left on their loans.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by kevin_thibedeau on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:33PM (#23861410)
Purchasing homes in low CoL areas is much easier.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by mjayhn on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:09PM (#23861896)
I started my career in 2008. Millennials had to go where the jobs where, and they weren't in low COL areas. Hopefully covid opens up the market for far more remote work. I'm remote now, finally, but in a high COL area, which feels especially dumb now that I'm locked inside.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by dopamean on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:12PM (#23860421)
I wonder how many of those are occupied by renters.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by _wldu on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:16PM (#23860474)
I'm not sure. I posted that to point out the danger of these statistics. We have to be careful. People can tell whatever kind of story they want to tell (at either extreme) and cite the same statistics. Mark Twain made this quip widely known, and it is relevant:

"Lies. Damned Lies. And statistics"

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by blaser-waffle on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:38PM (#23860698)
Benjamin Disraeli made it famous; he said it first. Mark Twain made it famous with Americans.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by singlow on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:16PM (#23861188)
If Disraeli made it famous, why doesn't anyone have any idea when or where he said it? When Twain first used it, he indicated that it was a phrase attributed to Disraeli by some, but in a way that made it sound like Twain knew that not to be true. There is no evidence Disraeli ever said it and its first appearance in history is after Disraeli's death.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by thesteamboat on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:06PM (#23861057)
This is probably wrong. Quoting from the wikipedia article on this phrase:

  > The phrase derives from the full sentence, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.";
  > it was popularized in the United States by Mark Twain and others, who mistakenly attributed it to the British prime 
  > minister Benjamin Disraeli. The phrase is not found in any of Disraeli's works and the earliest known appearances were
  > years after his death. The phrase was attributed to an anonymous writer in mid-1891 and later that year to Sir 
  > Charles Dilke, but several others have been listed as originators of the quote, including frequent erroneous 
  > attribution to Twain himself.  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies%2C_damned_lies%2C_and_sta...
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by paulmd on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:58PM (#23860956)
>Almost 40% of homes in America are owned free and clear (no mortgage).

looking merely at owned homes is ignoring everybody that rents. Renters falling behind on their rent are equally likely to be evicted as soon as the moratoriums are listed.

(and that in fact goes to my point about "your rent/mortgage is someone else's asset", a renter who's not making mortgage payments is probably still putting someone else's mortgage in the red and causing havoc in the rest of the financial system. I don't personally shed too much of a tier for the personal finances of highly overleveraged landlords doing the BRRRR type bullshit, it's been screwing up pricing for renters for a decade now, but it's a problem for the rest of the financial system too.)

BRRRR: https://investfourmore.com/brrrr-method/

Also, as another poster mentioned, the demographics of home ownership tilt very differently. Lots of boomers own their homes, in many cases free and clear. The numbers for people in their 30s (let alone 20s) are pretty low these days, so your statistic basically ignores everyone under 50.

(And in fact even if we got younger people into homes, the same wealth transfer that boomers enjoyed probably cannot be replicated - it was artificially created by lowering interest rates from the highs of 19% in the 70s/80s down to basically 0% now, allowing people to finance much larger amounts of money and causing the underlying asset values to soar. Nor would it be desirable to do so.)

And in general I disagree with your comment further down in the thread about "you can say anything with statistics". The obvious thrust of that argument is: gee, I guess we better just not use statistics and argue about feelings instead. That's so much better.

It's pretty much an argument made by people whose positions can't be justified by actual data - they don't reconsider their positions, they just want to stop looking at the data.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by _wldu on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:59PM (#23861750)
The point is that many statistics are worse than 'damned lies' because they are made-up to prove a point. It's like a tobacco company paying for research that shows nicotine is not addictive in 66% of people tested. I just made that up as an example. It's not true.

So before you can have any faith in stats, you have to know the source and how the research was funded and by whom (this is before we even begin to talk about methodology flaws). If you do not know that then you cannot trust the stats at all. They are indeed worse than damned lies.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by charwalker on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:13PM (#23861146)
I work within a financial institution (CU) and I can say they have no wish to actually evict/foreclose/etc. After the 2008 crash they bumped their reserve % 3-5 points higher than required to insulate from the next recession (here today). But for mortgages, internal notices appear to suggest it's better for the CU if they keep people in their homes and have the same level of payments resume in a few months vs auction the house. Maybe the math only works out for a few months, I'm not in the loop on those conversations. They are very community focused and not driven by profit so that helps me trust the internal news.

As someone wanting a home in a high CoL area, I would love a 10-20% off rush from thousands of houses going to auction or sale but it wold be devastating locally. We simply are not equipped, as a nation, to address the fallout from this years events. Especially not with current (lack of) leadership and circling of wagons.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by paulmd on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:11PM (#23861927)
I think local credit unions are a bit different than banks. I don't think JP Morgan or whatever would probably give that same consideration.

But I do take your point that banks don't necessarily want to immediately boot everybody out, foreclose, and crash the market at a time when potentially not a lot of people are buying.

Do bear in mind that the Fed has injected a shit-ton of cash into the market right now, and there actually would be more buyers than you think - it's just that they would be rental companies looking for more assets to snap up at firesale prices.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by felideon on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:31PM (#23860622)
> The 3-month timer is still running and as soon as the moratorium on evictions is lifted, they can kick you out immediately.

Homeowners shouldn't rely on the moratorium. They should have contacted their lender to get on a 3-month forbearance plan which can be extended for another 3 months when it expires.

I'm not sure how many times lenders are going to permit forbearance extensions, but once people are able to get back to work and start making mortgage payments, they need to call their lender for a loan modification. This brings their account back to current.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by JohnTHaller on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:00PM (#23860311)
25% of folks in NYC, the largest rental market in the US, haven't made rent payments since March. NYC has put a hold on evictions, but their owed rent is still building up. The majority of Americans weren't able to cover an unexpected $500 expense before the pandemic hit. The full depth of how bad this is going to get hasn't hit most people nor has it hit the markets.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by causalmodels on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:41PM (#23860739)
The blanket eviction moratorium has expired in NYC. You can now be brought to court for failure to pay, but if you can prove financial hardship they can't kick you out. This is a fairly substantial burden. I'm afraid what will happen since people can't afford rent let alone legal representation.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by ethanwillis on Thursday July 16, 2020 @11:42AM (#23860113)
I can really only give my personal viewpoint of it. But for me personally I just have not been paying my mortgage only because I was lucky enough to have a government backed mortgage loan where I could tell the bank "tough shit" until the end of the year.

Also there have been temporary measures in place for things like utilities, ISPs, mobile phone plans etc. where people will keep accruing obligations on their bills without the services being cutoff. However it seems that those programs are about to come to an end. Locally where I live the utility service here said they will start doing cutoffs in August.

So I think it's a mixture of some amount of savings, some access to credit, and then a kicking of the can down the road for a few months. So my guess overall is that basically we are simply delaying the problem in a bunch of different ways. But at the end of that delay is going to be a lot of economic hurt when those bills actually come due.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by wronglebowski on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:04PM (#23860351)
In my experience access to credit besides credit cards has been extremely limited.

My wife and I looked into several different personal or short term loan options for our upcoming IVF cycle(approx 30k$). Most banks have either stopped offering them completely or made the requirements much harder. The two of us with credit scores of 750+, combined 200k annual income and little existing debt couldn't get approved for a simple 5k$ loan.

I fear for those that have a more dire need for the cash than we do.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by causalmodels on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:47PM (#23860815)
This reminds me of a little trick I learned while working in finance.

If you have bad credit but have over $1,000 in cash, go and get an unsecured loan for roughly 90% of your cash on hand. Ideally the terms should have a negligible or nonexistent prepayment penalty. Once you have the loan, repay it within 2-3 business days.

Rinse and repeat until your credit score starts to improve.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by kevin_thibedeau on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:36PM (#23861456)
Is there a reason why you can't get by on $170k?
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by wronglebowski on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:54PM (#23861686)
Newlyweds, not a ton of savings. Trying to balance building a safety net while building a family.

It's not a terrible hardship given our current situation but given the volatility in the job market it certainly makes us uncomfortable.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by claudeganon on Thursday July 16, 2020 @11:40AM (#23860088)
People are coasting on tiny savings, eviction freezes, not paying bills, and moving in with their friends or families. Or at least my friends anyway.

The fall/winter is going to be an absolute disaster because you can’t fix anything about the economy without getting the pandemic under control, which a large percentage of our leaders in the US have decided they have no obligation to do.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by option on Thursday July 16, 2020 @11:41AM (#23860109)
Please remember to vote based on candidates’ record not FB/Youtube ads
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by claudeganon on Thursday July 16, 2020 @11:47AM (#23860181)
I don’t know what this is supposed to mean, but this failure extends across both parties in the United States. The refusal by politicians to take on Capital owners is pushing people into homelessness, loss of healthcare, or danger in low wage jobs, all of which further exacerbate the pandemic.

The mainstream of the Democratic Party has advanced little that would address any of this, mostly quibbling over means testing income supports and lurching right. And we can just look at that state of the pandemic in the US to know what the other side thinks we should be doing.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by Answerawake on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:24PM (#23860561)
This is what boggles my mind. We had progressive candidates running this cycle that were outright commiting to trying something different. Yet the majority of the voter base ran towards people promising the same strategy as previous administrations. Either this crisis is magnified on HN and the majority of the voter base is unaffected by the pandemic or something else is going on.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by fzeroracer on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:49PM (#23861626)
That's because for a lot of people they just want to stop hearing about politics and go back to a status quo for them where they can ignore the growing disaster that's consuming the younger generations.

There's a massive, massive class divide between generations and ultimately this pandemic is going to explode it even further. We're still in the fingers-in-our-ear phase.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by stainforth on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:30PM (#23861384)
There is the glut of the older population, captivated by neutered or divisive nightly news, that does not want change, only preservation of the perceived status quo.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by claudeganon on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:39PM (#23860717)
The Democratic party made the correct bet that they could use their media apparatus to discredit progressive candidates, get away with cheating in Iowa, and use Obama to get the other moderates to concede with promises of internal advancement. It was corrupt and repugnant, but a strategically sound approach to make sure they're headed on the ticket by a center right leader (which their donor base demands).
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by Answerawake on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:30PM (#23861381)
As someone who volunteered for multiple campaigns this cycle, I saw this clearly. But I also see most people that I have met on my travels just seem to be checked out, even if they vote. I think this is the bigger problem. The previous cycles have already just turned people off from thinking they can do massive change. Even with a record number of volunteers and supporters with a campaign like Bernie, it still wasn't enough numbers.

I often wonder how painful things will have to get to enact some change with the checked out masses. What will happen if we reach that point?

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Thursday July 16, 2020 @03:06PM (#23862599)
>What will happen if we reach that point?

More riots, looting, autonomous zones, and probably hostile us army deployments stateside.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by babycake on Thursday July 16, 2020 @01:41PM (#23861520)
Don't forget that the Democratic party has something called Super Delegates, which basically blocks any candidate they don't agree with, even if the candidate won the popular vote. If Trump ran as Democrat, he wouldn't be president today due to this.

Also, we shouldn't forget that Michael Bloomberg decided to run last-minute as a Democrat, with the Democrat party changing the applicant rules so that he could specifically run.

The whole political apparatus is entirely corrupt. I'm not sure voting helps at this point. We have a massive amount of people who are on the last of their savings, with no unemployment benefit coming their way to help out. This may be the beginning of a revolution, if people are angry enough, maybe.

Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by mnm1 on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:18PM (#23862011)
Lots of early votes didn't count because they were cast for politicians who dropped out. Actually, no votes other than Biden's counted since Bernie dropped out before the race ended as well. Yes, the odds were stacked against him by the party, but that doesn't change the fact that he did have a chance and could have given Biden a good run. So when you don't actually have a race and everyone drops out, what do you expect? The party will simply not allow progressive candidates to rise to any position of power. Maybe once the current old guard dies out, but I'm not holding my breath.
Re:Another 1.3M Americans File for Unemployment by londons_explore on Thursday July 16, 2020 @11:41AM (#23860100)
I have no data to back this up, but I would guess with interest rates at record lows and massive amounts of stimulus money with nowhere to go, getting a personal loan is rather easy right now...