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Re:Orthodox Privilege by NhanH on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @10:29AM (#23845665)
Related, and still one of pg's best writing imo: "What you can't say" - http://paulgraham.com/say.html

This one, in additional with the previous essay about 2 different kind of centrists really make me curious of what unorthodox opinions PG is holding and can't say right now.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by seibelj on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @10:34AM (#23845724)
The power of that article for me, and what makes it interesting, is he never says what it is he can't say. It lets the reader imagine all sorts of possibilities in their mind, and determine what outrages themselves.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by josephcsible on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @10:48AM (#23845940)
This sentence really sticks out to me:

> I suspect the statements that make people maddest are those they worry might be true.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by 082349872349872 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:58AM (#23847087)
from http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html#part30 Orwell, "NOTES ON NATIONALISM (1945)"

"If one harbours anywhere in one's mind a nationalistic loyalty or hatred, certain facts, although in a sense known to be true, are inadmissible. Here are just a few examples. I list below five types of nationalist, and against each I append a fact which it is impossible for that type of nationalist to accept, even in his secret thoughts:

BRITISH TORY: Britain will come out of this war with reduced power and prestige.

COMMUNIST: If she had not been aided by Britain and America, Russia would have been defeated by Germany.

IRISH NATIONALIST: Eire can only remain independent because of British protection.

TROTSKYIST: The Stalin régime is accepted by the Russian masses.

PACIFIST: Those who 'abjure' violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.

All of these facts are grossly obvious if one's emotions do not happen to be involved: but to the kind of person named in each case they are also INTOLERABLE, and so they have to be denied, and false theories constructed upon their denial."

(With hindsight, we see the irish nationalist was less conflicted than Orwell had been willing to admit to himself. Or am I missing something important, given that this was written in 1945 and not 1922?)

As far as Orwell's most famous book goes, my heterodoxy of the moment is that I'm convinced the frame story in 1984 was not a jeremiad of warning about a future to avoid, but instead a cathartic story about a past young EA Blair had suffered: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23825457

Re:Orthodox Privilege by jonny_eh on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:22AM (#23856357)
And this is why Orwell is a superior writer, he gives actual examples so we know what he's actually talking about. I have no idea what "dangerous ideas" pg is always complaining about. Social Darwinism? Who knows?
Re:Orthodox Privilege by zeveb on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:11PM (#23847304)
> With hindsight, we see the irish nationalist was less conflicted than Orwell had been willing to admit to himself. Or am I missing something important, given that this was written in 1945 and not 1922?

Ireland spent the Second World War neutral, albeit sympathetic to the Axis (Eamon de Valera famously mourned Hitler's death!); what Orwell was trying to say is that the only reason Ireland had any neutrality to preserve is the U.K. was implicitly defending it: had the Axis powers won the war Germany or Italy would have soon enough made Ireland a puppet state.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by flixic on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @02:06PM (#23849153)
> Why? It could be that the scientists are simply smarter; most physicists could, if necessary, make it through a PhD program in French literature, but few professors of French literature could make it through a PhD program in physics.

This sentence usually ruffles some feathers, and is a good, even if weak, example of things you "can't say".

Re:Orthodox Privilege by StavrosK on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @10:34AM (#23845723)
Probably largely the same everybody else is holding.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by neoplatonian on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @10:55AM (#23846042)
It is pretty clear, if you read Paul Graham's twitter feed, what is it that he wants to say but feels he cannot say. I see where his point of view completely, but having not seen the the other side of privilege: the very real and lived experiences and feelings where cancel culture stems from, I feel this is an issue where he is totally blindsighted. The problem in the US currently, I feel, is not cancel culture per se, but widespread and ever growing narcissism which makes one less questioning about their fundamental worldview than one should be.

Paul Graham is somewhat a victim of this himself.

For example, the assumption behind this very essay is that there is such a thing as a rigid, singular concept of "truth" in the moral, cultural and political sphere, that there is a "fact of the matter" whether a belief (say one PG holds) is correct or not. Or that that we live in a static world where such truths can even exist, and not, in a fluid, dynamic, politically messy world where contrasting viewpoints interact and produce something not something ever lasting, but something which is fragile and must always be fought for, this fight being a necessary feature for a functioning democracy.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by StavrosK on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:04AM (#23846191)
But it's kind of moot what he, specifically, wants to say, no? Shouldn't we instead try to work towards a society where no opinion is taboo?

It seems to me that the biggest reason why some opinions are taboo is that we're worried (usually for good reason) they'll find supporters. Instead of making opinions taboo, we should work on an educational system that doesn't let harmful opinions take hold of people.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by gjulianm on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:12PM (#23847318)
> Shouldn't we instead try to work towards a society where no opinion is taboo?

There will always be taboo opinions. For example, I can't imagine a civilized society where an opinion like "capital punishment for every minor fault is ok" is not taboo.

> Instead of making opinions taboo, we should work on an educational system that doesn't let harmful opinions take hold of people.

How? I think the problem is that this is impossible at all. Not every opinion is based on reason and education will not be a shield from them.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by StavrosK on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:16PM (#23847384)
> I can't imagine a civilized society where an opinion like "capital punishment for every minor fault is ok" is not taboo.

This one isn't. Here, I can say "there should be capital punishment for every minor fault!" and nobody will bat an eyelid. Nobody will agree, which is why it's okay to say this.

"Taboo" means "opinions you can't talk about", not "opinions that won't be popular". Many taboo opinions are extremely popular, such as "homosexuality shouldn't be a crime" a few decades ago.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by gjulianm on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:46PM (#23848822)
It's not taboo because you are not taking it seriously. Now, would a newspaper let me write this? Would my family treat me the same if I were serious with this opinion?
Re:Orthodox Privilege by StavrosK on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:52PM (#23848932)
Maybe I don't have a good grasp of the cultural context, but it seems to me that you would be much better off tweeting "I believe that capital punishment should be used for even minor crimes" than something like "I think it's okay to own black people".

Hell, I spent a full thirty seconds wondering whether I should even post the latter under my name, even if it's clearly in a hypothetical context and I'm just mentioning it as an example.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by tlb on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:48PM (#23847870)
> the assumption behind this very essay is that there is such a thing as a rigid, singular concept of "truth"

I don't think that assumption is required by the essay. It says that people with orthodox privilege believe that anything outside their orthodoxy must be untrue. So it merely claims that certain people believe (often falsely) that they can conclude something is untrue because it's unorthodox. A crisp universal definition of truth isn't necessary for them to believe this.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by neoplatonian on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:28PM (#23848481)
If one gets rid of those assumptions, the whole concept of orthodox privilege would be purely rhetorical. Here is how this essay would change if you replace "truth" (which does not really exist in the political sphere) by "morally unacceptable to certain groups of people"

"They literally can't imagine a true statement that would get them in trouble." would be replaced by "They literally cannot image a statement which is morally acceptable to certain groups of people (to which they belong) would get them in trouble with those groups of people". Which is completely fair and reasonable.

[dead]
Re:Orthodox Privilege by StavrosK on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @10:51AM (#23845969)
I do see your /s, but I'll answer anyway: I've decided that US cultural problems were a source of stress for no payoff, which I didn't need. I used to be much more involved until I realized I live a world away from the US and the societal problems don't affect me much (and I also realized that I didn't identify as black, white or any of the race options on the census), plus there are much more pressing problems at home.

As you can see from the fact that I commented in this thread, I don't always succeed :P

Re:Orthodox Privilege by core-questions on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @10:53AM (#23846003)
It doesn't have to be beyond the pale. There are plenty of totally scientific and statistical facts, observed many times over by many different studies, that reveal uncomfortable truths you will be cancelled for talking about.

Whether it's IQ or crime demographics, or something more esoteric, we're increasingly entering into a time where you have to toe the line of orthodoxy or risk losing your livelihood. This means we can't actually get better studies into these areas, nor can we propose policy mechanisms that might actually work towards improving reality, because we are incapable of basing policies on unorthodox facts.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by watwut on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:48PM (#23848871)
There is nothing uncomfortable about being told that you are genetically superior.