But let me ask the question another way. What security do you gain by being in a container instead of on a server without a container?
I'm not a container guru, but... this is obvious, right? You have to break out the container, which is an extra layer. In order to get root on the server, you need:
• Without container: application vulnerability (to gain access to the OS) + kernel vulnerability (to gain access to root)
• With container: application vulnerability (to gain access to the container) + container breakout vulnerability (to gain access to the OS) + kernel vulnerability (to gain access to root)
You make it sound like I'm missing something — what am I missing here?
Edit: are you talking about CVEs like this one (https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2020-3215)? I guess I'm assuming that a container vulnerability will give an attacker less to play with than a kernel vulnerability.
Most of the bad stuff you can do when you take over a web server doesn't require root access, just user level access, and you get that whether or not it's in a container.
They are not an additional shell of defence, they do not reduce your blast radius.
Could you explain what you mean by this? I'm still not getting it.
Here's the example I have in mind: I have one application listening on a TCP port, and another one listening on a different port. I don't want the first application to talk to the second application. If they're just two processes on the same machine, they can both see each other, and an attacker who manages to exploit an RCE vulnerability gets access to the port "for free"; if they're both in containers, then they can only see the ports I specify, and it's really easy for me to specify them.
This literally does seem like an additional shell of defence to me! What sort of attack would it make worse?
As for your example, there’s no difference between that and OS mediated mandatory access controls, separation of uids, chroot etc. Those capabilities are present irregardless of whether you’re using containers.
Anyone selling you on containers as a security measure is pitching snake oil. They are a resource allocation & workload scheduling tool. They may help applications avoid inadvertently treading on one another’s toes e.g. avoiding library conflicts or easing the deployment of, say, QA and showcase environments on the same metal, but it’s intrinsically a shoji wall.
There’s even a cultural downside, since developers may make exactly these flawed assumptions about runtime safety, or hard-code paths for config files rather than making them relative to deployment location, make assumptions (implicit or otherwise) about uids and so on, i.e. containers can breed sloppy dev practices.
> Anyone selling you on containers as a security measure is pitching snake oil. They are a resource allocation & workload scheduling tool.
I agree with both of these statements — and I suspect this is where it all falls down. When you put all your applications in containers, you are not done with security, no. Nevertheless, I've found great value in having one file per version per application, being able to upgrade my dependencies one-by-one, automatically rolling back in case of failure, and taking advantage of the tools in the container ecosystem. With all that, the security features such as isolating filesystems and network ports are just the cherry on top. Before containers, I was thinking about how to give my applications limited filesystems to work with, but along came Docker, and I didn't have to think about it anymore, because I'd already done it.
This is why I feel so out-of-touch with many of the commenters here. I'm surrounded by people decrying containers for security reasons, I want to defend them because of the many benefits they have given me, and I think the people preaching some kind of True Security (where everything is 100% perfectly isolated) aren't taking this into account. I feel like I could take your comment — "Trusting the isolation like this is absolutely misguided" — and apply it to any part of the stack. You have to stop somewhere.
I've seen the salespeople. They definitely exist, but I don't think they're here on HN, and they're more likely to be learning than lying.
And developers making flawed assumptions? You know this didn't start happening with containers!
Don't underestimate your responsibilities as an active participant online and operator of a globally reachable computing resource. Like driving a car, if you're not fully qualified and alert then you can endanger yourself and others. This is how PHP got such a bad rap.
The fact that the container deployment tool has helped you configure security elements (such as limited filesystem access) is nice, but those elements already existed, along with the tools to manage them. Containerized software deployment did not invent them, and if you're getting procedural benefits from containers, that's great for you, but that's all it is.
To be fair, more security by additional tooling adds a vulnerability in human error, but that's true of all the tools.