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Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by RivieraKid on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:05PM (#23822983)
Tesla's market cap per car sold is 112x higher than Volkswagen (sales data for last year). They never had a profitable year.
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by chrisseaton on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:17PM (#23823113)
Tesla completely turned the industry on its head with their electric cars - something dinosaur incumbents like Volkswagen were either unwilling or unable to do. Maybe people see a future in Tesla and not as much in Volkswagen, and the price reflects the future not the past?
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by Certhas on Monday July 13, 2020 @02:00PM (#23823610)
VW is the company with the third largest R&D budget, after Amazon and almost tied with Alphabet. More than ten times larger than Tesla.

Over recent years they built a substantial tech base for EVs that they are on the brink of introducing at scale. The Zwickau plant alone is planned to scale to 330000 EVs/y next year. ICE production at Zwickau is shut down.

This is diametrically opposed to, for example, BMW who seem to be more doubling down on ICE with token efforts towards EVs for now. It's not insane to say that Tesla will eat BMWs share of the future, but that is valued ten times lower.

Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by nickik on Monday July 13, 2020 @02:05PM (#23823667)
I hate these 'R&D' budget argument. The can spend money but actually Tesla was first on all the important stuff. So have no idea why this all of a sudden is supposed to matter.

VW can barley get the basic software for their EV right at the moment. The CEO has admitted the lead Tesla has.

> planned to scale to 330000 EVs/y next year.

They have been missing their claimed targets many times before. Even if they manage that, only a tiny % of current cars sold are electric. Nobody believes Tesla will own 100% of the market.

If VW can actually make good on all those promesses, their stock will also go up.

But having the legacy and investment of massively depreciating ICE assets and not shown the ability to produce profits with EVs, they will need to execute to convince investors again.

Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by Certhas on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:29AM (#23830644)
It's a question of ressources. Just like it's hard to see Microsoft becoming irrelevant simply because they have so much cash that they can just keep trying.

What exactly was Tesla first on? They managed decent range but there EVs are simply not that difficult to build compared to ICEs. Software is big but they know they are behind they have the ressources, and the institutional commitment.

It's not that I think Tesla should have the same cats/validation ratio as VW. They are ahead after all. But it's very hard to see the extend of the discrepancy in validation as justified over the long run for me. And it's not like VW is ignoring adjacent markets, Moia is a reasonably successful pilot, etc...

Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by nickik on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:20PM (#23837288)
> What exactly was Tesla first on? They managed decent range but there EVs are simply not that difficult to build compared to ICEs.

This myth simply does not hold up once you consider how pretty much all manufactures have run into massive problems with EV production and struggle to achieve margin.

If it was so easy as claimed, Tesla would not multiple of the highest selling EV all over the world.

Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by fomine3 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:51AM (#23841800)
Tesla need to sell EV but others not. Selling ICE/HV/PHEV cars is more profitable for now.
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by nickik on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:41AM (#23846819)
Stocks are forward looking into the future. Making big profits now was not moving the stocks up, and now companies like Ford are not even making much profit anymore.

All that ICE infrastructure is massive bound up capital, that gone be a negative in a couple of years.

Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by Barrin92 on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:38PM (#23823358)
>Maybe people see a future in Tesla and not as much in Volkswagen, and the price reflects the future not the past?

Tesla's valuation is now three times higher than in April, what exactly is supposed to have happened in the last few months that changed investors minds about the long term future? Had they not turned the car industry on its head in April yet?

Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by nickik on Monday July 13, 2020 @02:06PM (#23823684)
Tesla lost far less during COVID and has shown to be resistant to even a crazy recession. They showed demand in the worst economic climate in 10+ years. They continue to show very good margin that nobody else can match with EVs, not even close.
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by RivieraKid on Monday July 13, 2020 @02:19PM (#23823835)
They were break even in Q1, thanks to $400m of tax credits thanks to tax credits. They had to drop prices in Q2. Deliveries would be down YoY if it wasn't for China.
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by nickik on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:16PM (#23837239)
So what? All producers dropped prices and offered intensive. All companies try to sell/produce cars in China. Getting extra money for doing nothing is a negative now? Automotive only margins are still good and improving making their outlook for the second half of the year very good.
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by fzeroracer on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:29PM (#23823255)
This seems like a similar argument to what I saw for Bitcoin before the crash came. Bitcoin prices were high because the bitcoin price reflected the future of currency and that bitcoin turned the finance industry upside down.
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by jmastrangelo on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:33PM (#23823297)
Not sure why you got downvoted. I think Tesla is a great company, but these valuations suggest they're going dominate transportation in a way no car manufacturer ever has.

Even if that is possible, which I'm not sure it is, the future is uncertain and the stock should have significant discount to reflect that.

Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by RivieraKid on Monday July 13, 2020 @02:16PM (#23823799)
Of course, I don't doubt that Tesla is innovative and doing many things right. I was talking about the valuation.
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by slg on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:28PM (#23823239)
I think Tesla is extremely overvalued. I was long on them for years and cashed out at around $800 because I couldn't understand the valuation anymore. However, it is a mistake to compare Tesla best case scenario against current car companies. They are also a energy company, a battery company, a logistics company, and a transportation company.

For example, Uber isn't that far behind Volkswagen in terms of total valuation. If Tesla ever nails Autopilot, Tesla can immediately become Uber. Volkswagen doesn't have nearly as clear of a path to those extra revenue streams.

Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by bryanlarsen on Monday July 13, 2020 @02:07PM (#23823691)
I've been long Tesla since 2012. I agree, it's crazy overvalued. Every time that happens I sell about 1/3 of my holdings, which means I now have 15% of my original holdings. If I still had it all that would be a crazy pile of money, but on the other hand the bit that's remaining is just play money and I'm comfortable letting it ride and when get stressed when it inevitably drops again.
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by bmitc on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:34PM (#23823300)
How are they an energy or logistics company? What products or services do they sell that fit those categories?
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by orcasauce on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:41PM (#23823386)
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by slg on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:51PM (#23823509)
You forgot https://www.tesla.com/semi for logistics.

Lots of these products and services are nowhere near maturity, but the stock market is the sum of all future revenue streams weighted for probability. There is a potential future in which many of us get our energy from Tesla solar panels, that energy is stored in Tesla battery, we use that to power our autonomous Tesla cars that we either own or call to us with a ridesharing app, all while Tesla owned and operated trucks cross the nation autonomously. I don't think that is a particularly likely outcome, but there is a way for Tesla to get there while there is a near zero chance Volkswagen has a similar future.

Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by bmitc on Monday July 13, 2020 @02:17PM (#23823801)
That's still a vehicle isn't it? Are semi-truck makers considered logistics companies?
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by slg on Monday July 13, 2020 @03:11PM (#23824411)
The belief is that they will follow the same path for both ridesharing and trucking. If and when Autopilot is able to handle fully autonomous driving, Tesla will turn on that ability for owners to rent out their vehicle with Tesla taking a cut. Once that is successful, Tesla would then start to build its own internal fleet of autonomous vehicles to rent out and take all the revenue. This Tesla owned fleet would be the second stage because the vehicles themselves have a huge upfront costs. There is no point in incurring that upfront cost until the system has proven to be profitable among existing Tesla owners.
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by bmitc on Monday July 13, 2020 @02:20PM (#23823853)
Thanks. I didn't realize or had forgotten it was Tesla that sold the solar panels.
Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by tyree731 on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:58PM (#23823585)
https://www.tesla.com/utilities

They've sold reasonable-sized power infrastructure to utilities in a few different places.

Re:Tesla jumps 14% on S&P 500 inclusion speculation Now the ... by adventured on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:24PM (#23823191)
> They never had a profitable year.

I think you're trying too hard.

Is Tesla overvalued? Very overvalued? Reasonable debate to have given where the market cap is at now.

However Tesla very obviously isn't being valued today based on whether they turned a profit in the past. Companies aren't valued by their profit from five years ago. That they have never had a profitable year, doesn't dictate whether they will in the future. Tesla has grown by nearly 300% in 3.x years. The market is primarily concerned about growth and cash burn rate, limiting excess red ink, not that they must immediately generate immense profit.

Tesla has also shown a drastic improvement in their operating picture. From negative $1.6 billion in operating income in 2017, to negative $252m in 2018, to positive $80m in 2019, to positive $841 million in the last four quarters. Investors tend to pay attention to direction in particular, betting on where the company is going.