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Re:Linux kernel in-tree Rust support by cxr on Saturday July 11, 2020 @10:49AM (#23802581)
Funny, before your comment showed up, I was actually going to edit in an addendum to link to

https://robert.ocallahan.org/2018/10/the-costs-of-programmin...

... to pair with the mbeddr link.

You seem to be at a place where you think of Rust as already entrenched, but I'm at a place where I still see Rust as a proposition—one that could lead to that place, or not if we think better and nix it (following the reasoning above).

Re:Linux kernel in-tree Rust support by loeg on Saturday July 11, 2020 @11:15AM (#23802758)
I don't think Rust is going away. You may not like it; it may not be adopted by the Linux kernel. But it is widely used in real codebases (including, say, Firefox). It's not brand new. And the article linked above discourages creating new languages; valid or not, that horse is well out of the barn.
Re:Linux kernel in-tree Rust support by cxr on Saturday July 11, 2020 @11:33AM (#23802911)
The post as written, and whether intended or not (admittedly by current signs, I guess it'd be foolish to wager anything other than "not"), ends with an observation that's still highly relevant here but that you're neglecting to account for.

> I hope people consider carefully the social costs of creating a new programming language especially if it becomes popular, and understand that in some cases creating a popular new language could actually be irresponsible.

And being widely used is not the same thing as being entrenched, not the same thing as being unable to say, "nice prototype; let's wrap this up now and do it for real this time".

Re:Linux kernel in-tree Rust support by loeg on Saturday July 11, 2020 @12:54PM (#23803545)
> ends with an observation that's still highly relevant here but that you're neglecting to account for.

No, that's kind of the sentence I was responding to. Rust is already popular; that horse is out of the barn.

> And being widely used is not the same thing as being entrenched, not the same thing as being unable to say, "nice prototype; let's wrap this up now and do it for real this time".

I don't care to argue about the first clause, but I don't understand how you can argue the latter. Who is going to say "nice prototype; let's discard this?" Do you expect the Rust-using projects to just fold? Do you expect Rust developers to just disappear? Again, it sounds like you don't like Rust, which is fine, but as someone external to the community, why do you think anyone would listen to you about spinning down Rust?

Re:Linux kernel in-tree Rust support by roca on Sunday July 12, 2020 @01:48AM (#23809176)
As someone who's spent the last few years writing a 170K line Rust project ... I consider it entrenched!

I stand by that blog post, though I recognise it's controversial. I think Rust clearly qualifies as "worth the cost of a new language". There simply wasn't, and still isn't, any other serious contender for safe GC-free systems programming. New contenders will arise but in the meantime lots of projects are doing safe systems programming that without Rust would have been done in C or C++ and would have had to be unsafe.

Re:Linux kernel in-tree Rust support by cxr on Sunday July 12, 2020 @01:14PM (#23812917)
Even if the benefits are "worth the cost of a new language", is using the new language worth the cost of it being Rust?
Re:Linux kernel in-tree Rust support by roca on Sunday July 12, 2020 @08:00PM (#23815797)
You have not made your argument clear.

Are you questioning whether Rust is simply not good enough to be worth using by anyone? Lots of people, including me, have judged that is worth using for us, both before we tried it and after we've put Rust projects into production.

(BTW once again you have implied there is something deeply wrong with Rust that cancels out its benefits, without saying what that might be. That is annoying.)

Re:Linux kernel in-tree Rust support by cxr on Monday July 13, 2020 @12:49AM (#23817280)
You're not seeking answers; in place of anything that would lead to a better understanding, you're asking the questions that make it easier to defend the position you've staked out. (Great job, Brendan!)

If someone released a memory-safe, highly concurrent, systems-oriented version of INTERCAL, you recognize that someone might look at that and say, "Gee, I don't think that's really worth using", and the comment's lack of detail doesn't nullify the substance of what makes the comment true or not? And an opponent could approach in the same way you are now, with the primary goal of "beating" the other participant—by making it burdensome to respond—and by all appearances do so?

It's not my job to painstakingly prepare a perfect, incontrovertible response for a hostile adversary, particularly since absolutely nothing would come of that time investment. If your idea of success is the sound of all your colleagues telling yourselves that you won the conversation and you're on the right track and nothing needs to change because there really aren't any issues... then, hey, that's just fine.

Re:Linux kernel in-tree Rust support by roca on Monday July 13, 2020 @05:52AM (#23818997)
You asserted that Rust should be thrown away, but decline to provide any reasons why you think that. So yeah, in the absence of any supporting argument, I reject your claim, and so would any other reasonable person who doesn't already believe it. You have added nothing to the discussion.
Re:Linux kernel in-tree Rust support by cxr on Monday July 13, 2020 @11:21AM (#23821703)
> You asserted that Rust should be thrown away, but decline to provide any reasons why you think that.

That simply isn't true.

> I reject your claim

That's fine.