When did it take away citizens right to vote? You're talking about felons not being able to vote? Yeah I agree with getting rid of that, getting rid of gerrymandering etc. You can be a critic of implementations the system and yet still support the underlying mechanism.
You're supposed to feel like you have a say and not BE in control. Yes minority groups will have less power, that is fine.
"There's nothing making this system better..." "I grant you there are clearly far more freedoms in the western..."
The US will basically spread democracy and capitalism. True capitalism is bad for the entrenched CCP, Russia oligarchs, etc because the US multinationals will inject their capital in the system and take control of everything. Of course they want to keep power. I think there should be some guarantees of the country keeping some ownership over their production.
CCP and Russia are trying to lock down their systems and increase their competitive output, so that when they clash with the West they can compete on value/innovation.
I'm not saying the system is perfect, it's obviously coopted by different groups. But it is as close to perfect as exists in the world today.
So the theory is great if only we ignore the practice? A protection racket works on solid mechanisms and even principles in theory. The implementation just needs the small detail of breaking the law. It also looks great from inside if you benefit even the least bit from it, but criminal from the outside.
> The US will basically spread democracy and capitalism.
Lots of countries became democratic and capitalistic because the US explosively "spread" them? What was the cost for those countries to still not achieve that? Protection rackets might have more satisfied customers.
> True capitalism is bad for the entrenched CCP
I'm not sure you understand what "true capitalism" means. Short version, it's not great for the regular person. There's no room for protections and you're only as valuable as your contribution to someone else's bottom line. Sounds familiar? Now I honestly wonder what happens if you apply "pure capitalism" to a country of 1.5 billion knowing that either the theory or the practice encourage lobbying (buying) for laws to favor the few, and selectively adjust the democratic process to eliminate the most inconvenient votes.
> But it is as close to perfect
In theory. But you'd have to be naive to believe that the US goes anywhere just to spread the good word, especially considering the current track record doing that and that since as you agreed they themselves are far from nailing the practice. Other countries have nailed both, take Scandinavian countries where people are treated equal, the GDP per capita is similar to the US's (+/- $10k), and the democratic process works in practice. Why isn't the US importing that rather than being concerned with exporting theirs?
Look, I don't know where you get your facts, your opinions, your education from but it's not the right place. The system failed you and hasn't prepared you for this conversation.
Playing the victim eh? No, I'm a different guy.
I flagged you for insults. Your account is no more or less throwaway than mine.
> You're implying I have the answer, the "key".
If you have no answers, you have nothing to contribute but FUD. You were happy to answer other questions but not that one. But that is by-the-bye, I flagged you for insulting language.
> Asking for "the answer" is a typical method of bogging down any conversation
Odd. I find asking for an answer works quite well to resolve issues, if one is prepared to listen. But you blow insults instead.
> I think saying that you are unprepared for it is simply an objective confirmation of your admission that (in your words) I have the key and you do not.
So you claim to have an answer. But won't give it. And instead, insult.
My friend, I didn't just "claim" I have the answer to that question, I gave it to you. More than half of my comment above is the answer. Hint: starts with "So how about". And in addition (not instead) I stated another fact (not insult): you are not prepared to have this conversation.
You have no answers to questions that form the crux of the matter, questions you should really be able to answer by yourself because they are a matter of fact and public knowledge. You have absolutely no argument and keep asking me for more answers, or commenting on my wording, or accusing me of spreading FUD. And even when I provided answers in a reasonably well structured comment (4th paragraph) you still weren't able to follow. If you tune out every time the other person answers you're not qualified to have any conversation. This is advice, not insult. The premise of a conversation is that at the very least you listen to what the other party is saying. Otherwise it's just 2 people shouting to the emptiness.
> Your account is no more or less throwaway than mine.
You stumbled on an obscure submission that was already buried very deep on HN and you went straight to the bottom of the page to reply. The only way you could get here was to search for very specific terms, or have a direct link. You have to admit it really looks like throwaway account behavior. Literally having "throwaway" in your username doesn't do much to change that impression, it's not the first choice for first time HN users.
Yeah... "some sort" says it all doesn't it?
It's a much deeper discussion that this topic or medium affords. But that very same system took away through various means millions of citizens' right to vote, and routinely generates situations where the will of the majority is overridden by a minority. And there's a lot more where that came from. You are given just enough power to feel in control but not enough to be in control. You have a voice but nobody really has to listen.
I grant you that, there are clearly far more freedoms in the western world in general than in China. But there's nothing better about US's system of values than say the Icelandic one (quite visibly the opposite actually). But...
It all boils down to one simple fact: the US imposes it's own views on the rest of the world via military and economic measures against anyone who doesn't comply, doesn't have anything truly of value to trade, or threatens that military and economic superiority. See Saudi Arabia, one of US's closest ally vs. China, one of US's biggest enemy. Both have the same values yet get very different ends of the stick. There's nothing making this system better other than the military and economic force behind it.
And I'll leave you with a bit of foods for thought: large scale organized crime groups also elected their leaders through "some sort of democracy", and have economic and "military" power to impose their will even over entire countries. What does this say about their system of values? Must be tip top.