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Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by chii on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @09:55AM (#23759290)
> Want a linter for your project? That's going to be $50k.

the thing is that i think the open source software is a miracle that it even exists, and i don't find it strange that nowhere else has replicated the success. Because open source, at heart, is quite altruistic.

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by mercer on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @11:29AM (#23760225)
I think the principles underlying FOSS are found everywhere. It's just that the idea of 'markets' and 'transactions' being the ubiquitous thing has infected our thinking.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by mannykoum on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @11:57AM (#23760521)
Wholeheartedly agree. In parts of society where our distorted ideas of "productivity" and "success" are absent, people share more freely. The island where my family is from comes to mind (Crete, Greece). There—in the rural areas—people were able to deal with the 2007-2008 crisis a lot more effectively than they did in the cities—esp. compared to Athens. What I observed is that if someone didn't have enough, the rest of the village would provide. There was a general understanding that that way the people with less would get back on their feet and help contribute to the overall pool.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by mercer on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @12:30PM (#23760841)
Wonderful example!

I'd add that just looking at how families or circles of friends operate is also enlightening. The most cynical view is that these interactions are 'debt' based, but practically speaking that often isn't true either. I help my mother not because I calculate the effort she has invested in me or the value she brings me. I just do it because I love her and I don't need to think about how I've come to feel that way (which very well might be based on measurable behavior on her part).

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by bavell on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @06:03AM (#23768465)
IMO this has nothing at all to do with "distorted ideas of productivity and success" and everything to do with the rural vs urban lifestyle. There are plenty of similar examples like the one you gave that happen everyday here in the U.S. As a general human rule, smaller communities are more tightly knit and care more for each other.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by mannykoum on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:22AM (#23769154)
That is definitely a factor. More complex social systems provide a degree of distance between you and the rest of the community (how can anyone keep up with having a sort of relationship with a few million others).

What is present in rural areas is a sort of respect and fear of exclusion (I think these two are reciprocal). But it is not impossible to have that on a local level in a large city. Having lived in both London and New York (similar population size, vastly different population density) I've seen this happen. In Manhattan specifically there is little respect for neighborhoods—comparatively—while in London residents care for their boroughs. Some direct actions that might have fostered that are simple things like community gardens/allotments which are very common in the UK.

that's my humble opinion, I'm not an expert in human social behavior.

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by chii on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @10:37PM (#23766394)
but does this only work when the number of people in the tribe is low, and everyone has some social accountability to each other?

The problem of a free-rider is ever present, and in big cities, that problem is evident and thus you don't get the sort of community effort that you see in a small village.

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by CountSessine on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @06:20PM (#23774824)
Yeah - see “Dunbar’s Number”

Beyond Dunbar’s Number, it’s not clear that you can employ mutual-aid theories like tit-for-tat to restrain free-riding and cheating.

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by ballenf on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @12:00PM (#23760549)
I think the truth is in the middle: there are many examples of secret processes throughout history and craftsmen jealously guarding processes except through apprenticeship programs where payment was years of cheap labor.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by mercer on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @12:31PM (#23760865)
Oh yeah, it's not a binary thing. That said, in the case of craftsmen and their apprentices, I think the relationship was much less cold and transactional than, say, my startup friends who got a bunch of interns as cheap labor. At times perhaps, but not generally.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by mobilefriendly on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @10:30AM (#23759638)
It actually took a lot of hard work in the early days, to prove the model as valid and also defend the legal code and rights that underpin FOSS.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by Ericson2314 on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @03:49PM (#23763259)
"Miracle" as in tireless efforts of the GNU project decades ago, not random act of the cosmic rays, let's be clear.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by prewett on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @06:07PM (#23764663)
You of little faith...

This is the record of the miracle of St. iGNUtius [0]. Back in The Day, before all the young hipsters were publishing snippets of code on npm for Internet points, Richard Stallman seethed in frustration at not being able to fix the printer driver that was locked up in proprietary code. While addressing St. iGNUtius, patron saint of information and liberty, he had a vision of the saint saying that he had interceded for Stallman, and holding out a scroll. On the scroll was a seal, and written on the seal in phosphorescent green VT100 font was the text "Copyright St. iGNUtius. Scroll may be freely altered one the sole condition that the alterations are published and are also freely alterable." Upon opening the seal, and altering it according to the invitation, Stallman saw the scroll split into a myriad of identical scrolls and spread throughout the world, bringing liberty and prosperity to the places it touched. Stallman hired some lawyers to write the text of the seal in the legal terms of 20th century America. Thanks to the miracle of St. iGNUtius, software today is still sealed with seal, or one of its variants, named after the later saints, St. MITchell and St. Berkeley San Distributo.

[0] A twentieth-century ikon of St. iGNUtius: https://twitter.com/gnusolidario/status/647777589390655488/p...

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by phkahler on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @05:07PM (#23764081)
It's far too easy for people new to this to overlook the importance of the Free Software Foundation.

The original RMS email announcing the project is a nice read. When placed in the context of his personal frustration with commercial software it can also be seen as a line in the sand.

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by edge17 on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @10:02AM (#23759368)
Or it's artistic expression for a certain type of individual, and we have accessible art everywhere
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by x0 on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @06:51PM (#23765110)
Isn't it a miracle! It's fantastic, I've been reading old computer magazines from the 80s and 90s on archive.org, and the costs to set yourself up back then were just astronomical. I remember seeing C compilers priced at $300, or even more.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by noir_lord on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @07:14PM (#23765316)
I’m just 40, I started programming in 87, got serious around 93, I remember getting my hands on a copy of turbo pascal from a family friend - not expensive but was for a kid and it was amazing.

Now I grumble if it’s a pain to install a massive open source tool chain for free and these days it’s rarely painful.

I should stop and appreciate that more once in a while.

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by lowtolerance on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @07:47PM (#23765568)
I think a full copy of Visual Studio in the late 90s was like $700-800.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by ddevault on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @10:32AM (#23759655)
This isn't true. Writing open source software is more profitable: it's cheaper (because everyone works on it) and works better (because everyone works on it).
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by BoysenberryPi on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @10:39AM (#23759726)
Do you have data to back this up? Because all accounts I've heard say that it's incredibly difficult to make money in open source.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by whatshisface on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @10:43AM (#23759766)
The easiest way to make money in open source is to be a company that makes money from a product that depends on, but isn't, the open source product. Then other businesses will improve your infrastructure for free and make you more money.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by chii on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @10:40PM (#23766403)
aka the free-rider problem.

That's why i don't think hardware opensource will work, but that this model "worked" in the software world is a miracle. By "worked", i mean that it exists.

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by whatshisface on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:43AM (#23767214)
It's not a free-rider problem if you were the one that released the open source infrastructure, or if you use it, need to change it, and send the patches back in. (That's why the GPL is a good license.)
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by stickfigure on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @12:21PM (#23760752)
it's incredibly difficult to make money in open source

This is true, but in the markets where open source thrives, it's even harder to make money in closed source. One talented programmer might make a new web framework, release it, and gain some fame and/or consulting hours. Good luck selling your closed source web framework, no matter how much VC backing you have.

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by ddevault on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @10:41AM (#23759744)
Making money only writing open source is possible, but complicated and out of scope for this comment.

But writing some open source - making your tools (compilers, linters, runtimes), libraries, frameworks, monitoring, sysops/sysadmin tooling, and so on open source is much more profitable, and that's a huge subdomain of open source out there right now.

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by BoysenberryPi on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @11:44AM (#23760390)
This doesn't really answer my question though. Seems like the other comment to my question is spot on. If you divide all company actions into making money or saving money then open sourcing your toolset is more of a saving money thing as you can get people who aren't on your payroll to contribute to them. That's all well and good but not exactly what I think of when someone says "making money with open source."
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by phkahler on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @12:55PM (#23761155)
That seems like an accounting mindset. Engineering is not a cost center (to be minimized) it's an investment in the future. This view offers a lot more flexibility and options - including cooperation. It also suggests that you may get back more than you put in. Invest wisely of course.
Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by BoysenberryPi on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @01:00PM (#23761235)
> It also suggests that you may get back more than you put in

You can also get back significantly less than what you put in.

Re:Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips by nostrademons on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @02:30PM (#23762436)
For a lot of corporate open-source the goal is to commoditize a complement of your revenue-generating product and hence generate more sales. If you're Elastic, having more companies running ElasticSearch increases the number of paying customers looking for hosted ElasticSearch. If you're RedHat or IBM, having more companies using Linux increases the number of companies looking for Linux support. If you're Google, having more phones running Android increases the number of devices you can show ads on.

Similarly for independent developers. You don't make money off the open-source software itself. You make money by getting your name out there as a competent developer, and then creating a bidding war between multiple employers who want to lock up the finite supply of your labor. The delta in your compensation from having multiple competitive offers can be more than some people's entire salary.