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Re:In the future, lab mice will live in computer chips, not ... by ars on Friday July 03, 2020 @03:09AM (#23721728)
You can ask the reverse question - if the Robot version of a mouse is sufficiently similar to a mouse, maybe the mouse also doesn't actually feel pain, and is really a kind of biological robot.

Maybe so are you.

Dualism holds that living entities are special, and can never be replicated artificially. So your question can actually be turned into dualism vs monism (which is not a question with a settled answer).

Re:In the future, lab mice will live in computer chips, not ... by FeepingCreature on Friday July 03, 2020 @03:44AM (#23721906)
This would run into the "here is a hand", or rather "here is a fist" objection.[1]

Pain is the ground reality that is to be explained. If you manage to explain away pain rather than explain it, you haven't actually answered the question at all. If your answer at the end is "pain is not real", this doesn't prove that pain is not real, it proves that your premises were wrong.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_is_one_hand

Re:In the future, lab mice will live in computer chips, not ... by ars on Friday July 03, 2020 @05:22PM (#23727782)
If a computer prints on the screen "I'm in pain", is it actually in pain?

If you tell me "I'm in pain", are you actually in pain?

If you are sedated with a memory blocker, and are then hurt, but you don't remember it afterward, were you actually in pain? (This isn't an academic question - many medical procedures simply paralyze the patient and add a memory blocker, but don't provide much analgesia. The patient can not express pain, and does not remember it. So does the pain they felt matter?)

You want an explanation of the wrong "ground reality", you are discussing the wrong question, it's not "is pain" real.

It's all about the subjective experience of pain, and can a robot share in that? Can a person in a coma share in that? Can an animal?

Re:In the future, lab mice will live in computer chips, not ... by FeepingCreature on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:20AM (#23746337)
> If you tell me "I'm in pain", are you actually in pain?

> If a computer prints on the screen "I'm in pain", is it actually in pain?

Maybe. If you SMS me that you are in pain, are you in pain? "I'm in pain" is evidence of someone being in pain. But being in pain, the referent, is just being in pain. There's no additional indirection.

> If you are sedated with a memory blocker, and are then hurt, but you don't remember it afterward, were you actually in pain?

Yes.

> You want an explanation of the wrong "ground reality", you are discussing the wrong question, it's not "is pain" real.

No, this is an issue that was actually brought up.

> > maybe [...] you [...] [don't] actually feel pain

All reason is grounded in experience. If I know anything, it's the things that I experience directly. Pain is probably the most direct experience there is.

edit:

> It's all about the subjective experience of pain, and can a robot share in that? Can a person in a coma share in that? Can an animal?

Yes. No. Yes.

These are not difficult questions to answer... You're phrasing it like there's some kind of philosophical difficulty here, but I don't think there is. If you define pain as an aversive sensory experience, ie. a sensory experience that makes you wish it would stop (this definition covers disgust and discomfort as well, and I think that's valid), then it seems clear that anything that can form goals (and yes, a memory blocked sedated person can form goals, they just can't act on them) can experience pain. I think the objection to computers is just that we rely too much on our empathy to determine when something "is in pain". I think an NPC in a game that moves away from a fire is experiencing pain, even though its mind is extremely simple, just like an amoeba would when it avoids a harmful chemical. It doesn't have such a thing as a qualia of pain, maybe (I'm not convinced!) - but that's hardly necessary.

I feel we must overcome our distrust of functional descriptions. Pain is a functional pattern, and not a very complex one.

Re:In the future, lab mice will live in computer chips, not ... by dTal on Friday July 03, 2020 @03:35AM (#23721859)
This comment doesn't make any sense to me. Why would the existence of a robot copy imply a lack of pain? How can you argue that whether humans feel pain is an unsolved question? Shall we experiment on you instead?
Re:In the future, lab mice will live in computer chips, not ... by wizzwizz4 on Friday July 03, 2020 @09:10AM (#23723655)
Many philosophers are confused. Free will is a solved problem (we have free will regardless of the metaphysical premise, unless you're using a weird definition of free will, and even I can prove it for any given metaphysical premise), yet they're still working on it.

If somebody links "free will" to "determinism", they're very confused about what free will is.

There are a lot of philosophers doing genuinely useful work, but so much of the field is pre-occupied with trivial (and non-trivial) variations of the "if a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound?" koan.

Re:In the future, lab mice will live in computer chips, not ... by lachlan-sneff on Friday July 03, 2020 @11:50AM (#23725008)
I must be quite confused then, but how is free will not linked to determinism?
Re:In the future, lab mice will live in computer chips, not ... by wizzwizz4 on Friday July 03, 2020 @03:08PM (#23726584)
There's a proper proof, which is too long to fit in this margin (i.e. I'm too lazy to find a link), but I can do a much shorter one:

1. Non-determinism is equivalent to determinism plus extra, random input.

2. The addition of random noise does not bestow free will upon something that didn't have it without the random noise.

3. 1 and 2 imply no non-determinstic systems can possess free will if deterministic systems cannot possess free will.

4. 3 implies free will is independent of determinism.

Re:In the future, lab mice will live in computer chips, not ... by ars on Friday July 03, 2020 @05:24PM (#23727796)