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Re:The Internet is too unsafe: We need more hackers by xwdv on Sunday June 28, 2020 @10:04AM (#23668750)
Unfortunately it doesn’t pay well to be a hacker, you’re better off being a software engineer. So yea, I guess the internet can rot until there’s a way to do white hat hacking at scale.

I’ve looked into this, in order to transition from software engineering into a cybersecurity niche it requires a drastic pay cut. Sure if you’re the self-employment type you could try doing bug bounties, but the top 1% make like 35k a year on average, and everyone else makes peanuts or zero. That is still better than starting a startup, but you're also better off being a day trader where 10% of people make a better living with only 2 hours of trading a weekday and two hours of analysis and strategizing in the morning, maybe then you could find time to hack systems just for fun.

The other thing you could do is become some kind of consultant and make better money consulting companies and running pen tests for them, but if you can do that you could just as easily make more money building out and consulting on custom software solutions...

And if you don’t care about the money fine, but eventually someone that does care about money will come along and do it better than you anyway and eat your lunch.

Now, to leave this post on a positive note and not become a target for downvote gangs, I’ll propose this: the way to have more hackers at scale is to grow every software engineer to be a security conscious engineer by default, such that they are constantly looking for vulnerabilities throughout development and deployments to production. It works well because I’d say engineers spend maybe 4 hours a day actually working and the rest is thinking about problems, which can happen in parallel with hacking quite nicely.

Re:The Internet is too unsafe: We need more hackers by save_ferris on Sunday June 28, 2020 @12:01PM (#23669659)
> the way to have more hackers at scale is to grow every software engineer to be a security conscious engineer by default, such that they are constantly looking for vulnerabilities throughout development and deployments to production.

Most companies I’ve worked for have encouraged this to a degree. However, there are some major objective mismatches when trying to fit security engineering into product engineering. It’s great to understand the OWASP top 10 and read up on basic issues to avoid (like SQL injection), but I don’t think this proposal is very realistic for a few reasons.

Security engineering requires deep knowledge of protocols, networking, system design, etc. that a lot of product-oriented engineers just don’t have enough context to own that responsibility outright. New vulnerabilities are being researched on a regular basis. How do I keep up with netsec research while trying to stay current in my primary skill set? You might as well suggest to a front end dev that they should start rolling operating systems.

On top of that, pen testing can be incredibly time-consuming, and putting that responsibility on engineers who are focused on shipping as quickly as possible is going to cause problems. My performance as a product engineer is tied to my ability to ship, not testing my feature against every known attack vector out there.

We’re better off trying to change the culture of making everyone a half-assed security engineer by fostering a culture that treats security as a first class citizen.

Re:The Internet is too unsafe: We need more hackers by yakkomajuri on Sunday June 28, 2020 @10:19AM (#23668845)
Great points indeed.

As for your proposition - I agree. A simple way to do this would be to have, for example, a day a month where the organization's engineers try to break into their own system.

It's common to write tests and follow best practices here and there, but developers often won't actually dedicate some serious time to actively try to break into their own system as an attacker.

I think this could be fun and beneficial for all involved.

Re:The Internet is too unsafe: We need more hackers by scaryclam on Sunday June 28, 2020 @01:24PM (#23670375)
I worked at a company where we did this. It was indeed fun, and we learned some things about our system that showed up some security issues. It also made everyone think more about what a curious attacker could do in a short amount of time.
Re:The Internet is too unsafe: We need more hackers by sabas123 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @11:58AM (#23669628)
> but the top 1% make like 35k a year on average, and everyone else makes peanuts or zero

Where do you get that idea from?

Re:The Internet is too unsafe: We need more hackers by needAnAltHN on Sunday June 28, 2020 @12:38PM (#23669995)
They are probably talking about freelance. Not mentioned was that the top 0.1% are ones that make 200 to 500k.

Also no mention of starting a testing business? No mention of cyber security jobs?

Re:The Internet is too unsafe: We need more hackers by xwdv on Sunday June 28, 2020 @01:22PM (#23670367)
There was a mention, testing businesses and cybersecurity jobs all pay less than software engineering businesses or jobs.