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Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by crazygringo on Thursday June 25, 2020 @08:36PM (#23647483)
Hate speech is widely viewed as a legitimate exception to free expression, along with other classic examples of things like yelling fire in a crowded movie theater. Not by every country to be sure, but by many democracies.

You're portraying this as some kind of whim that changes with people's moods, but that's a complete, total, 100% straw man. There are decades of legislation and jurisprudence, particularly in Europe, that can be used to define hate speech in a stable way.

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by jariel on Thursday June 25, 2020 @09:26PM (#23647813)
"You're portraying this as some kind of whim that changes with people's moods, but that's a complete, total, 100% straw man."

This is completely false.

The popular definition of what people think FB ought to take down literally changes week by week.

It is absolutely a 'whim' that changes over time.

The issue with FB is not, for the most part the 'legal' definition 'hate speech' - it's 'speech which people consider harmful'.

If FB were to focus very intently on removing that which would 'legally' be considered, technically 'hate speech' - which I believe they do - the populism against them would be just the same.

Ironically - it's your argument that is the 'straw man' - by holding up a pragmatically fictitious standard (i.e. 'legal hate speech') as the standard by which FB would be measured.

And FYI FB's platform already doesn't allow hate speech by their own interpretation, and a whole host of other forms of speech as well, i.e. their bar is at least theoretically already higher than that.

This issue is Greyer than Grey, those who see this in Black and White I believe are not looking closely enough. It's messy.

EDIT: FYI 'hate speech' has legal definitions outside of the US.

I would also like to point out the very problematic implied assumption that American popular social framework is somehow relevant anywhere else in the world.

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by gguevaraa on Thursday June 25, 2020 @08:43PM (#23647533)
Meh, the 'yelling fire in a crowded theater' is, rightfully, not protected under free speech but "hate speech" (which has no legal definition in the US) has consistently been allowed by the Supreme Court. Doubt we'll reach a hate speech exemption anytime soon.
Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by shkkmo on Thursday June 25, 2020 @08:57PM (#23647622)
The the phrase "shouting fire in a crowded theater" has am interesting history.

It does not come from an an actual precedent, but dates back to a supreme court decision that prohibited political speech on opposition to the draft during WWI.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_t...

In my opinion, the unanimous decision on that case is a travesty and the use of the term to justify abrogating free speech indicates a lack of understanding of the history of the government abrogating free speech when it serves their interests rather than for the common good.

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by avsteele on Thursday June 25, 2020 @09:07PM (#23647686)
"falsely shouting..."

all should listen to Chris Hitchens on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2uzEM0ugY

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by cwhiz on Thursday June 25, 2020 @08:54PM (#23647606)
What is hate speech? Can you define it for me? Better yet, use legal definitions.
Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by cdavid on Thursday June 25, 2020 @09:07PM (#23647691)
As the OP mentioned, many countries, including democratic ones, do have laws around hate speech. Wikipedia has a few words about it in English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_France#The...

You also have laws against defamation that consider it illegal to defame people based on race and other criteria (since the 19th century in France).

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by pnako on Thursday June 25, 2020 @09:21PM (#23647787)
The last such law in France was just cancelled for being unconstitutional.

And in practice they are impossible to enforce for a platform like Facebook, since in the end it's a judge who has to decide what is, and what is not hate speech.

In practice, enforcement is selective and the sentences are never formally enforced since it would create de-facto political prisoners, which gives a bad image to a democratic country.

So I'm not sure they're a good example.

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by cwhiz on Thursday June 25, 2020 @11:53PM (#23648522)
Okay, let me be more specific. Define it for me in US law.
Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by JoshTriplett on Thursday June 25, 2020 @09:35PM (#23647856)
The great thing about not defining it in law is that anyone is free to use their own definition when deciding who they support, who they give money and patronage to, and who they host the content of.
Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by zamalek on Thursday June 25, 2020 @09:22PM (#23647791)
Hate speech isn't a legal construct in the US. It is, however, a social construct. This is a social issue. Nobody is taking Facebook to court over this.

In addition, freedom of speech IS NOT the right to be heard. This ignorant censorship argument is getting old and is immensely ignorant. I can walk away from some idiot spouting racist vitriol, just as much as Verizon can walk away from a platform that is infested with racist vitriol. They can continue to spout or host that vitriol, but nobody has to listen and nobody had to do business with them.

Facebook can continue to host this garbage, exactly like anybody is free to boycott them for that. If they lose all the business then the market and society has spoken.

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by jariel on Thursday June 25, 2020 @09:10PM (#23647708)
Yes, but the issue is whether or not a lot of this speech constitutes 'hate speech'.

Do jokes about 'The French' constitute hate speech? What if it's only a joke about Macron's 'stereotypical' French action? Or not even a joke? What if the target is Chinese?

It's a minefield and we need a map, aka rules, and FB alone cannot make them. Either industry gets together, or we have some sane regulation, or we live through this insufferable toxic pop-culture corp-on-corp virtue signalling, protesting, 'my cause is the cause' cold war.

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by pnako on Thursday June 25, 2020 @09:16PM (#23647749)
Everything is being redefined as hate speech, so that's a moot point.

"White lives matter" and "it's OK to be white" are not remotely hate speech, yet those sentences are being treated as being "white supremacist" stuff now.

The laws in Europe are 1) not that great and 2) won't work in the US thanks to the 1st amendment.

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by mythrwy on Thursday June 25, 2020 @10:37PM (#23648142)
That's because it's the kind of thing supremacist whites say. Not because it isn't true.

It certainly is legally permissible and agreed, not in and of itself "hate speech", but it is obnoxious and in bad taste and indicates sympathy with a certain point of view. Certainly something a big company wouldn't want to be associated with in the current climate.

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by ergocoder on Thursday June 25, 2020 @09:17PM (#23647755)
Then, can we get the court to order the take down since thes bad posts are obviously illegal?

I'm not sure why we let Facebook make these judgement, instead of a proper legal due process.

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by Munky-Necan on Thursday June 25, 2020 @08:40PM (#23647506)
Freedom of speech does not equal to freedom of consequence. What I've listened to people lately say is that when they engage in personal attacks they should be allowed to because "Freedom of Speech". Yet, the type of speech that is protected is speech that is against the government.

Being mean, hurtful, and disrespectful against an individual is not protected speech, it's called being a jerk.

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by mythrwy on Thursday June 25, 2020 @10:39PM (#23648154)
Being a jerk _is_ protected though, as is making jerk speech (at least in the US).

It just makes one a jerk to engage in it. Not a crime.

Re:Verizon suspends advertising on Facebook, joins growing b... by commandlinefan on Friday June 26, 2020 @09:34AM (#23651765)
> Freedom of speech does not equal to freedom of consequence

Yes, it literally does. That is, in fact, the definition.