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Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by AHappyCamper on Thursday June 25, 2020 @03:41AM (#23637905)
Again, I empathize with the feelings of people who may feel emotionally threatened by a derogatory comment, but some speech deals with people whose lives are in imminent mortal danger (e.g. those about to be sold on Black Market) and if we can't quickly discuss their cases and potential responses to rescue them, then they will be doomed to a life of untold misery. In such situations, there is no time to filter every comment and every email for potential sources of offense - we need to convey info as fast as possible.
Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by zarkov99 on Thursday June 25, 2020 @05:53AM (#23638788)
You are right and I do not think you should waste a single thought on the easily offended. They suck. There is no hope for that kind of faked fragility. Somewhere will always claim to be offended by something you say or do, to the point that the only safe thing for you to do is nothing at all (maybe). Much better stay true to your heart and plow ahead with the good work your are doing. Good people will see it and as to the others, fuck them.
Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by neilparikh on Thursday June 25, 2020 @04:18PM (#23645158)
> I do not think you should waste a single thought on the easily offended.

Unfortunately, this strategy doesn't work, because these people have the power to have a significant negative impact on your life (get you fired, ruin your reputation etc).

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by Guthur on Thursday June 25, 2020 @03:48AM (#23637946)
This has become a problem because the internet social networking has opened up the potential of mob justice tar and feathering that is causing people real harm in terms of their livelihood and I'd imagine mental well being.
Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by TheSpiceIsLife on Thursday June 25, 2020 @05:30AM (#23638650)
Could you just say “slave market” or “illegal market”?

Of course, black in this context refers to the transactions being performed in the shadows, and has nothing to do with the colour of the skin of the participants in the market.

It’s all a bit absurd, but it’s also a trivial change to adopt.

And now I’ve offended adopties. I jest.

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by AHappyCamper on Thursday June 25, 2020 @06:40AM (#23639075)
Once you start with this type of thinking, it never stops, and instead of focussing on how to save slaves from a life of misery, you're instead having meetings on which words are less offensive in your posts, messages, and internal communiques.

The amount of energy that this takes up is ENORMOUS, especially when you're dealing with something as difficult and dangerous as the slave trade. And what do you do when the new terms you've chosen all of a sudden become not acceptable?

If we agree that many types of non-threatening speech are no longer allowed, it becomes almost impossible to talk and convey ideas, especially in high-stress areas like this one.

Imagine a medic who waits to treat a homeless person who has overdosed because they can't remember the politically correct way to refer to the person, and they need to radio into the command center first before they begin treatment. So the person dies because the stressed out medic couldn't remember the politically correct terminology because they were trying to work out the best course of treatment...

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by CraigJPerry on Thursday June 25, 2020 @10:08AM (#23640926)
>> Once you start with this type of thinking, it never stops ... you're instead having meetings

Is this an example of the slippery slope fallacy?

There was no meeting required, the idea and action were raised and taken in the same parent post. Parent poster started with that type of thinking and avoided the halting problem.

>> The amount of energy that this takes up is ENORMOUS

Is it possible that learning to use different words in many contexts is the same as the act of picking up a thesaurus? How commonly does it not take such a trivial amount of energy? How commonly do you need to expend an enourmous amount of energy to achieve this end?

>> especially when you're dealing with something as difficult and dangerous as the slave trade

There's a bigger point can be made here, what if you're dealing with a topic you don't know well enough to navigate possible sources of offence? If you don't know, then your 2 choices are learn or ignore, it's possible that both of these are valid choices depending on context.

>> no longer allowed

"Allowed" is quite a vague term for the concept you raise - are we saying law against particular words or are we saying social norm and convention that can be broken in art, in protest, in challenge to the status quo? If it's anything short of a law that expressly forbids particular words, then the rest of your sentence's argument is nullified.

>> Imagine

Or don't. Slippery slope fallacy is a real danger in itself to be avoided.

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by julianmarq on Thursday June 25, 2020 @10:45AM (#23641338)
> Is this an example of the slippery slope fallacy?

Is it? It doesn't seem like it is because...

> There was no meeting required

... GGP's comment started a discussion on this very matter, still ongoing, instead of merely accepting that the term "black market" isn't offensive... Which it isn't.

> Is it possible that learning to use different words in many contexts is the same as the act of picking up a thesaurus? How commonly does it not take such a trivial amount of energy? How commonly do you need to expend an enourmous amount of energy to achieve this end?

You don't find this whole discussion exhausting? I do, it's entirely asinine.

> If it's anything short of a law that expressly forbids particular words, then the rest of your sentence's argument is nullified.

Because people haven't been fired and/or had their reputations ruined even though they said perfectly legal things? The argument is not nullified just because you try to will it so.

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by CraigJPerry on Thursday June 25, 2020 @11:42AM (#23641940)
> still ongoing

It's not. The parent and grandparent conversation stopped where they did. Our discussion isn't theirs. We're not pursuing the slippery slope on their behalf, we're not debating the merits of particular word choices.

> whole discussion exhausting? I do, it's entirely asinine

And yet, you of your own free will continue to engage it. Something doesn't stack up between what you say and what you choose to do but it's your affair, i have no cause to dig deeper so i stop here on this particular avenue.

> The argument is not nullified just because you try to will it so.

Agreed. Your argument

>>> it becomes almost impossible to talk and convey ideas

was nullified by:

>> If it's anything short of a law that expressly forbids particular words

A law doesn't make it impossible for me to use the words - i can choose to use the words but only at the cost of breaking the law. It's fair to characterise that as "almost impossible".

No construct exists with lesser severity than a law which exceeds the "almost impossible" test. QED.

Someone once said "Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After a while you realise the pig likes it."

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by ryandrake on Thursday June 25, 2020 @01:10PM (#23642905)
It's not a slippery slope fallacy because it actually happens. We get offended by some phrase, so we invent a euphemism for it. Then a few years later, we get offended by that euphemism, so we invent a more vague euphemism. And on and on. Go to YouTube and look up George Carlin's bit on "Shell Shock".

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by CraigJPerry on Thursday June 25, 2020 @04:16PM (#23645141)
> It's not a slippery slope fallacy because it actually happens. We

We? I’ve never. When did you fall for it and why would you?

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by Nasrudith on Thursday June 25, 2020 @05:14PM (#23645773)
The proper course of action I find to bad faith is scorn and ridicule until they either look like absolute tools or flee.

They are after social capital so harm and belittle their social status as much as possible in return. Treat them like any other cowardly bully or predator and make yourself offically Not Worth It as a target because their capabilities will be harmed by the proverbial scratched corneas.

"Offended by the term Black Market? That is the offical term for illegal portion of the economy and this is about the ILLEGAL slave trade."

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by cglace on Thursday June 25, 2020 @06:16AM (#23638925)
I don’t think it’s trivial if we are to the point where we are censoring completely benign words.
Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by CraigJPerry on Thursday June 25, 2020 @10:33AM (#23641185)
>> where we are censoring completely benign words

Are you saying in any context? That's not the proposal as i read it.

>> >> Could you just say

>> censoring

For censoring to be the case, it must be that you can't use particular words.

I read the case as

  1. the GP's post expressing a desire to show heightened care to a reader
  2. your parent posting a possible solution
Taking this to an extreme, if both behaviours above were to become a social norm then some words in some contexts would become extremely frowned upon to the point that you would personally choose not to use them.

They'd still not be censored though. Documents would continue to be written with the offensive terms by those who seek to offend. The words would be used in the socially unacceptable way in service of making a stronger point.

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by cglace on Thursday June 25, 2020 @03:14PM (#23644348)
I was using "we" to mean "we" would be self-censoring.
Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by CraigJPerry on Thursday June 25, 2020 @04:12PM (#23645080)
self-censor? Your original post makes no sense then, how can you self-censor a word that you self deem to be benign?

You’d have to recognise that the word wasn’t benign in that context first?

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by cglace on Thursday June 25, 2020 @05:12PM (#23645756)
Go back to the original parent of this thread. The concept was he self censored due to the fear of someone being offended.
Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by CraigJPerry on Thursday June 25, 2020 @07:40PM (#23647058)
Thats not true - where does he self censor?

> So what should I do? Just shut my mouth and don't say anything? Then the slave trade will continue to operate freely... All speech besides threats of violence needs to be free, or we can't progress as a society.

Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by cglace on Thursday July 02, 2020 @11:07AM (#23714031)
Okay, you got me, he didn't self censor but he was talking about considering self censoring and chose not to. QED no one has ever self censored out of fear of reprisal.
Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by bluntfang on Thursday June 25, 2020 @09:25AM (#23640436)
Is there a term for when someone says something, followed by 'but', then something that completely invalidates the first sentence?
Re:Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even... by giardini on Thursday June 25, 2020 @12:12PM (#23642300)
Either "contradiction" or "self-contradiction" would serve.