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Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by lend000 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:03PM (#23622098)
While it is appealing compared to many alternatives and is more portable for smaller settings, when used on an industrial scale like this giant battery, I wonder how it compares in overall utility to gravity batteries [0].

The nice thing about gravity batteries is that they can form a closed loop with water supply, too, pumping reclaimed water back up into reservoirs when there's excess power. I'd expect compressed air to have much higher energy density, but it would be interesting to see if anyone has the numbers.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_battery

Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by ashtonkem on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @09:05PM (#23622678)
Pumped water batteries are geographically limited, since they can basically only be installed wherever you could build a dam anyways.
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by trickstra on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:08AM (#23624636)
Yes, but you can be moving rocks up a hill on a train or cable car. Or concrete blocks up a crane. Geographic limitation solved.
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by ashtonkem on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:28AM (#23624744)
Rocks and hills are equally geographically limited.

Cranes would work, but I think you’re ignoring the massive difference in mass between what the biggest cranes in the world can lift and even the smallest reservoir.

Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by walrus01 on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:16AM (#23625024)
some people are trying this:

https://qz.com/1355672/stacking-concrete-blocks-is-a-surpris...

I believe there's a beta test facility under construction now.

Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by arethuza on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @08:03AM (#23626898)
Still pretty small compared to pumped storage - they give a value of 20 megawatt-hours, the Cruachan pumped storage scheme (which isn't particularly large) stores 7.1 gigawatt hours:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruachan_Power_Station

Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by ashtonkem on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @11:17AM (#23628844)
For comparison, the liquid air battery in this article is rated at 250mWh.
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by arethuza on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @11:59AM (#23629511)
I assume you meant Mwh? :-)
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by newyankee on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:55AM (#23625304)
Are they efficient ?
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by ashtonkem on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @11:51AM (#23629375)
Pumped hydro hits about 80% efficiency. So if you’ve got the right geography for it, it’s one of the best choices available.
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by disambiguation on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @11:49PM (#23623860)
look into energy stored on energy invested

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_return_on_investment#ES...

according to the wiki, pumped hydroelectric storage has a ratio of 704 where as compressed air energy storage has a ratio of 792.

Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by gnramires on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @10:00PM (#23623081)
Those methods are actually quite similar, they're all ultimately related (limited by) tensile strength of materials. So costs and specific energy densities (per construction material unit) are similar. An important figure is cost/tensile strenght I guess.

(Compressed air: limited by container tensile strength; gravity batteries: limited by strength of cables)

I suspect even the constants involved are the same (given the materials are almost uniformly under nominal load), although I don't have time to investigate right now (a good curiosity research topic!).

Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by istjohn on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @11:46PM (#23623832)
They are storing liquid air at low pressure, so container tensile strength is not a limiting factor at all.
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by trickstra on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:11AM (#23624653)
I believe these ones are not limited by tensile strength: https://interestingengineering.com/concrete-gravity-trains-m.... They are a bit limited by available geography, but far less than say pumped hydro.
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by gnramires on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:28PM (#23630008)
Indeed! In this case it's the integrity and friction of the soil (of the hill) that's keeping the potential energy contained, and this hill soil is "free".
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by sa1 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:21PM (#23622264)
In my country, there are economic challenges: water isn't available everywhere, diverting water is not cheap, and it messes with water sharing agreements, which are a political issue in themselves.
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by luma on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @09:08PM (#23622704)
Gravity batteries only need mass, it needn’t be water: https://youtu.be/gn5AM75AGvw
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by toomuchtodo on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @09:03PM (#23622672)
As I once heard from a Wyoming rancher, “Whiskey’s for drinking, water’s for fighting.” Water rights are treacherous to navigate.
Re:Construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery by PopeDotNinja on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:32AM (#23624773)
It’s gonna get worse, too, with upstream countries building dams at the expense of downstream countries.