No doubt about that.

I’m just arguing that the concept is fine, and the implementation is corrupted. Removing the corruption would be great but the issue is not the concept itself.

No, the concept is different in the US. It's conceptually not the same as an EU union.

If you think EU unions are great - then you'll need to first educate American union advocates about what they're doing wrong.

What if the concept is what leads to the corruption?

E.g. communism.

Im for unions, it beats the current situation, but im weary of the sales pitch.

But there are non-corrupt unions in other countries?

Even some in the US as some commentators have suggested (Screen Actors Guild being one)

Sure, there are non-corrupt unions in some other countries, the question is however how much % of them are not corrupt.

So? I didnt say it forces you to be corrupt, i said it may lead to that.

The "sales pitch" that is relevant here is the one put forth by the DoD and their enormously powerful SIGs for the last 75 years, namely "unions = communism" and "communism = bad".

As much as I would like to believe that there is a massive pro-working-class institution in the US that can afford to spend billions per annum on under-the-table PR/propaganda campaigns to shill collective action, it just isn't the case. The MIC on the other hand... putting those socialized taxpayer dollars to work against the evil working class (around the world).

I dont understand whats the pentagons propaganda machine got to do with me?

Not american.

Ps, i was not saying communism == unions. Thats fucking retarded on so many levels.

American military hegemony is a worldwide phenomenon. Unless you are in what is deemed by the MIC as "communist/terrorist/drug-dealer" country, there is going to be a sizeable media+political influence from Western/US interests in your country.

Are you arguing that unions lead to communism? While Europe has a rich weave of social-democratic governments, that would hardly constitute communism. In fact, I'd daresay actual communist parties in Europe with any real power are a distinct rarity.

No,my point was that certain power structures encourage corruption.

Hell maybe they all do. Maybe that is why modern day democracy actually works (checks and balances) and has very little to do with comunism vs capitalism.

Socialism is a step towards communism. Unions taking quite a lot of power from the owners of companies is any a way abolition of private property.

Yes, like dijit said, something modeled after the Screen Actors Guild. You rockstars get your million dollar salaries, no one gets overworked.

Great point. Guilds in general are a great way to reboot collective bargaining in the US. That thought occurred to me earlier this year and I completely forgot about it in this thread.

Although as one anecdotal counterpoint, read about some of the experiences Mike Jittlov had making Wizard of Speed and Time. He is playing it for effect in the film but it is at least semi-autobiographical.

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/31/movies/review-film-a-wiza...

One of the liveliest things about ''The Wizard of Speed and Time,'' aside from the frantic Mr. Jittlov himself, is the film's animosity toward Hollywood in general and the movie unions in particular. Mr. Jittlov, who himself resigned from the Directors' Guild in order to make this film free of union requirements, includes a sequence in which he visits one union office after another, being told in each that he must play by expensive and archaic rules if he expects to play this game at all.

When he tries to rent studio space, he is given a list of costs right down to the fee for a parking space, and winds up shooting in his own garage. And when he films an outdoor sequence in a park, a helicopter appears overhead with a loudspeaker to chastise him for trying to film without a permit. ''Maybe I shouldn't make films for a living,'' he muses dejectedly at one point. ''I've got a bicycle. I could deliver Steve's Pizzas.''

What's the difference between a union and a guild? Do Americans just have an aversion to the word union now?

Classic definition wise guilds had a legal monopoly or regulation over a certain trade occupations including the quality and the maximium supply through control of pipelines of licensing and training.

Historically they were a often a feudal "link" of control for administration. They meet with the head haberdasher to discuss carrots and sticks of taxation and licensing so they pay willingly and let them shout about unlicensed competitors instead of trying to chase down every last haberdasher to tax.

Unions are more "if you piss off every affiliated habberdasher in the city they refuse to make hats until their demands are met".

Probably. See the “Seattle Police Officers Guild” which is definitely a union... police aren’t independent contractors, or craftspeople, etc.

A guild is a collection of independent contractors, a union is typically your own employees. Also guild sounds way cooler.

Guilds (I assume) involve more mead and iron working.