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Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by dijit on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:13PM (#23407442)
Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Unfortunately it's hard for me to read more into your argument or position after I read the opening line.

Microsoft has the software support it does due to the monopoly position it has enjoyed for 30 years- this is not an argument to continue that lest we crown Microsoft "lord of the operating systems" because people actually pay them attention;

Thousands upon thousands of hours of non-microsoft employed developers time goes into supporting Microsoft's bottom line, only microsoft benefits from that.

Also I get a very "I had to go through a punishing time so I would prefer everyone else to be punished in perpetuity" vibe from your comments; similar to adults spanking children because they were spanked themselves and "they turned out fine".

I think we can do better, all of us.

Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:30PM (#23407625)
> Microsoft has the software support it does due to the monopoly position it has enjoyed for 30 years

Partially, but one must also give a huge amount of credit their efforts at maintaining binary compatibility of the userland for decades. This is something Linux Desktop fails at in spectacular fashion.

Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by MayeulC on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:33PM (#23408320)
Yes and no. The Kernel ABI is stable. Userspace is somewhat of a mess, ABI-wise. But most source code is available, so in most cases, you just need to recompile software to have it run, since APIs are more stable than ABIs.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder if, given proprietary (no source) software A, you couldn't recompile every open-source dependency of A from their sources around A's release time, and get it running. Sticking to open source software as much as you can tends to be a winning strategy in the long term.

The other day I linked the sdl12-compat project, that allows programs such as UT2004 to make use of modern Linux desktop features. Sure, the original sdl 1.2 might not feel at home on a modern Linux desktop (icculus'demonstration[1] showed it was not much better on mac). But as long as the foundations are open, they can be improved upon.

Windows tend to fare better with binary compatibility. But old software feels more and more alien on recent windows versions, and sometimes just stops working, and there's very little you can do about it then, in most cases :/

[1]https://www.patreon.com/posts/project-sdl12-25321792

Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:38PM (#23408382)
I will take Windows's "sometimes there's very little you can do about it" against Linux's "compile it and all its dependencies (probably versions of those dependencies from the same time period, and possibly even their dependencies) from source" any day.
Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by MayeulC on Tuesday June 09, 2020 @01:29PM (#23468723)
Part of my point was: if these dependencies are still maintained, chances are their API remained stable, so you only have to compile it with the new headers in most cases. Sometimes, you indeed have to compile obscure dependencies.

This is a consequence of a userspace where most software is open source, and where distributions systematically recompile every package. As a side-effect, it is also generally more portable across architectures.

Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by cycloptic on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @05:20PM (#23408930)
You don't want to do that. The first situation is not fixable, the second one is.
Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Monday June 15, 2020 @04:40PM (#23532707)
How very Linux Community of you to tell me what I want to do.
Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by terminalcommand on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:27PM (#23408232)
Linux software is usually distributed as source code, so I think the comparison does not suit very well. It's the package maintainers' duty to compatible, tested, secure binaries for you. But I imagine this sword cuts both ways. If you are a commercial app developer who wants to keep its source code to itself, maintaining binary packages for each distro and testing it could cost a significant amount.
Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:36PM (#23408356)
You don't even need to resort to commercial apps. A lot of older and niche software simply isn't in the repo.

In Windows land you can download a binary and it will almost certainly run, and 10 years of updates later it will still almost certainly still run.

In Linux land you'll probably have to compile it yourself. And 10 years from now you will probably have to make changes to C files manually because APIs have been changed in your dependencies and then compile it.

Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by cycloptic on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @05:11PM (#23408817)
You don't have to compile it yourself. You just do the same thing you would do with windows: keep old versions of the OS around and run them in a VM. (Running them in a container is also potentially an option which is not available on Windows) In some cases the old packages for library dependencies are still available too. For example see here for the packages from old debian versions: https://www.debian.org/distrib/archive

Recompiling is just another option you have in case nothing else works, and it's an option that you do not have on windows. If you really REALLY don't want to recompile then I would suggest you start mirroring some of those old distros/packages yourself so that you can guarantee they will remain available to you. It would probably be prudent to keep the source packages around as well just in case you need them.

Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday June 04, 2020 @10:01AM (#23416627)
Here's the thing about Windows: having to keep around an old version of the OS and run it in a VM is the exception. Often software that is 20 years old will not require this.

On Linux, that's often the rule for software that is 2 years old!

Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by cycloptic on Thursday June 04, 2020 @11:00AM (#23417500)
>Often software that is 20 years old will not require this.

A quick search around the net reveals this to be false, because Windows XP Mode doesn't work in windows 10. I haven't used windows in many years so you'll have to forgive me if there's something I'm missing here, but I see quite a few pages like this complaining about XP programs being broken or requiring a lot of fiddling to get working: https://www.dosgamers.com/windows-xp/windows-xp-games

It makes no sense to me that you have no problem with this, but at the same time you're complaining about having to type something like "docker run ubuntu:precise" to get an old version of a Linux userspace running inside a container. If this is too much work then you can pay Canonical or Red Hat or any of the other numerous Linux companies for a support contract for an LTS distro. This seems to be very similar to the situation in redmond where you now have to pay for an extended support contract if you realistically want to keep using Windows XP/7.

Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday June 04, 2020 @03:02PM (#23420449)
This is my point: sometimes 20 year old Windows software doesn't work. What you're seeing is evidence that it is the exception rather than the rule because people expect it to work because it usually does.

In the Linux world, the community is pretty actively hostile to people simply wanting to run software not in the repo let alone originally compiled 20 years ago.

Re:German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux by cycloptic on Thursday June 04, 2020 @03:26PM (#23420716)
I don't see any evidence to support the assertion that this is the exception rather than the rule. My searching has only shown evidence to the contrary, that various fiddling and workarounds need to be done to get old apps working properly in Windows 10. Even moreso if you want to use some of the newer features they're promoting, like tablet mode or high-DPI. Legacy apps just don't magically work in those situations. Here is another source for this directly from MS, where various workarounds are suggested: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/3025083. Again I am not a windows user and I'm just going off of web searches so if you have some other evidence then please tell me. I just simply do not believe that MS has some kind of magical solution for perfect backwards compatibility. Supporting that stuff continues to take up engineering time and they will also gladly charge you an arm and a leg if you insist on needing it.

>In the Linux world, the community is pretty actively hostile to people simply wanting to run software not in the repo

This is wrong. Supporting software that is not in the repo has been the primary reason for adoption of containers, and also other similar things like flatpak and snap. The only difference with these is that the upstream distro cannot possibly support them because it goes outside their scope, so you have to get support from somewhere else.