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Re:Sortition by mc32 on Monday June 01, 2020 @11:23AM (#23379510)
Uncharismatic people don’t do well even if elected.

GHW Bush was uncharismatic but won and also was ineffective at much. I mean, what did he do effectively?

Come to think of it, at least back to Carter, VPs seem to be quite uncharismatic. Ford on the other hand was more charismatic than Nixon.

Re:Sortition by PaulHoule on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:22PM (#23380234)
GHW Bush's crew planned for the first Gulf War in the early 1980s, designing a "rapid deployment force" that could occupy Saudia Arabia if something went down in the Persian Gulf.

Saddam Hussein was deep in debt and heading for an appointment with the IMF. Much of that debt was owed to Kuwait and he figured that annexing Kuwait would clean up his books from the Iran-Iraq war. He told the U.S. Ambassador that much; she said nothing in reply, went home to inform the Pentagon. Saddam took that as a "yes".

Bush put together a large coalition, established a lot of legitimacy, and ultimately won the war, and sent the troops home to a ticker tape parade.

Bush ended the "Vietnam Syndrome", completing the rebuilding of the military. CNN didn't show you the four days of nonstop ground combat that traumatized veterans who experienced the same mental health symptoms as Vietnam vets.

(You might think Bush and the CIA are evil, but up to this point, his team GOT THINGS DONE)

Saddam Hussein tried to blow the ex-president up when he was visiting Saudi Arabia. He took it very personally and so did his son -- that's why GW Bush was in such a hurry to attack Iraq after the Sept 11 attacks.

That war was a mistake to begin with, but in retrospect the Bush crew make big mistakes in the "nation building" phase - Don Rumsfeld for instance would be compared favorably to Robert McNamara except that he went along with Gulf War II.

Re:Sortition by mc32 on Monday June 01, 2020 @02:24PM (#23381889)
Hmm interesting write up. Taken at face value, it would appear he was a capable bureaucrat (could get things fine within a system), but as a politician he was lacking. Which I guess makes sense.

Politicians have to compromise and made deals with the devil and other things which require good rapport even with those you disagree with. They also need to sell their ideas to people and have them accept those ideas. Bureaucrats on the other hand just have to work well within a system. There are similarities of course, but I think one of them requires more agreeability and charisma than the other where procedure and connections are more important.

Re:Sortition by dr_dshiv on Monday June 01, 2020 @03:47PM (#23382896)
Wild. I remember reading about Saddam getting tacit approval for the war. Thanks for the write up.
Re:Sortition by arethuza on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:04PM (#23379984)
The UK had at least one superbly "uncharismatic" Prime Minister in living memory: Clement Attlee. Even though he was Labour, Thatcher wrote of him:

"Of Clement Attlee, however, I was an admirer. He was a serious man and a patriot. Quite contrary to the general tendency of politicians in the 1990s, he was all substance and no show"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_Attlee

Re:Sortition by notahacker on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:34PM (#23380406)
On the other hand May, Brown and Major also had very little charisma in public and they were far from effective prime ministers [although Brown was generally effective as a Chancellor]
Re:Sortition by arethuza on Monday June 01, 2020 @01:19PM (#23381017)
Good point - I meant extremely effective and uncharismatic - which does rather rule out those PMs you mention.
Re:Sortition by cowbellemoo on Monday June 01, 2020 @12:06PM (#23380003)
> what did he do effectively? Cover up his involvement in Iran-Contra.
Re:Sortition by fred_is_fred on Monday June 01, 2020 @11:25AM (#23379532)
UPDATE: Wrong guy! Missed the middle initial there.

He lied his way into two extremely expensive and unwinnable wars, both of which are effectively still on-going after almost 20 years. That required charisma. His legacy is north, south, west, and east of Tikrit.

Re:Sortition by keiferski on Monday June 01, 2020 @11:26AM (#23379546)
GHW Bush = George Herbert Walker Bush, the first president Bush (1989-93)
Re:Sortition by fred_is_fred on Monday June 01, 2020 @11:27AM (#23379552)
What a fail on my part. Sorry!