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Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by dheera on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:15PM (#23353548)
The problem with price gouging is that it opens doors to people hoarding supplies and reselling them at higher cost. Sitting in an armchair reselling things at a higher price is an inefficient allocation of resources during a pandemic, prevents people in need from being able to access those resources, and is an all-around waste of someone's two hands reselling things when they could be using those hands to directly do social good instead.

It doesn't help the world at all if only rich people are able to afford certain things like disinfectant and PPE; the virus is far more effectively controlled if everyone, no matter their socioeconomic class, has access to these things.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by goodside on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:58PM (#23354089)
While free-market pricing may create an incentive to hoard for resale, price ceilings also create an incentive to hoard for personal use. If I’m on the fence about whether I might need an N95 mask soon, and I learn they’re being sold at below-market prices due to ceilings, I’ll hoard because I’m worried they soon won’t be available at any price. I’m motivated to forecast the duration of the shortage and stockpile what I think I might need. If I overestimate, I don’t turn into a reseller, I just swallow the storage cost until I use them. When someone hoards for resale they can at least liquidate their oversupply to other customers, even if not at the price they hoped for.

Prices don’t just discriminate between rich and poor, they discriminate between desperate needs and casual wants. Everyone agrees it’s a good thing for the poor to have access to things they desperately need, but price controls also ensure that wealthy people can buy lots of the available supply on a whim. Someone with a mold remediation business might be willing to stockpile thousands of N95’s if available at pre-COVID prices — storage is cheap, and they’ll be used eventually. But if they’re being sold at a 5x the normal price, they’re motivated to stretch their current supply through re-use and buy only what they immediately need.

That’s why price controls and rationing should always happen at the same time, and the severity of price controls is constrained by the effectiveness of rationing. If you can easily defeat rationing (e.g. ordering from multiple online stores) it’s as though it doesn’t exist. In those cases, market prices make more sense for ensuring availability.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by erik_seaberg on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:18PM (#23354346)
Price controls are the reason no retailer had extra warehouses full of toilet paper and hand sanitizer. They can only make short-term decisions when we don't allow long bets to pay for themselves.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by goodside on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:28PM (#23354444)
Toilet paper also has relatively high storage costs and low shipping costs compared to other goods, which skews things. It obviously doesn’t spoil, but it’s physically large for how cheap it is and presents a fire hazard in bulk quantities. A typical consumer could actually afford to fill their home with stockpiled toilet paper until it becomes unlivable if they really wanted to, which isn’t true of most consumer goods. There’s also subtleties related to the segregation of consumer and commercial toilet paper markets.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by sokoloff on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:33PM (#23357294)
TP has relatively high shipping cost, especially as compared to its value. Dimensional pricing (charging by volume) is what kills you trying to ship TP.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by goodside on Saturday May 30, 2020 @02:23AM (#23358974)
For consumers you’re definitely right, but I don’t think this is true when buying by the truckload. Paper manufacturers produce both very high-density products (office paper) and very low-density products (toilet paper). Office paper is so dense that you have to ship it in trucks that are half-empty due to safety regulations on truck weight, so I’d expect a customer that needs both products can receive toilet paper in the same truck without much marginal increase in fuel consumption. I don’t work in the industry though, so I admit I’m mostly speculating.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by ghaff on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:38PM (#23354566)
Do you seriously believe that Scott Paper would keep warehouses of TP laying around if only they knew that they could charge $5 a roll if there were a shortage for some reason?

Honestly, large manufacturers/retailers are probably the least likely to price gouge because, laws aside, any extra profit that, say, Home Depot can make by selling snow shovels for $50 before an unexpected early blizzard is 1.) Trivial for their overall bottom line and 2.) Likely to result in a very expensive reputational hit.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by xyzzyz on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:14PM (#23354953)
Correct. The result is of course that after a blizzard, if you didn't line up in front of Home Depot at 4 AM, you have no chance to get a snow shovel.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by sokoloff on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:34PM (#23357309)
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by WalterBright on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:03PM (#23354836)
People don't hoard when there's a free market.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by goodside on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:37PM (#23355844)
Of course they do. People hoard any time they expect the price to go up — even the most unregulated markets have speculators.

You also hoard whenever goods have storage costs associated with them and you have excess capacity. Hoarding is how you collect rent on your grain silos, warehouses, freezers, oil tanks, etc. You either hoard yourself, or you contract out the capacity to others who want to speculate without the capital expense of building their own storage.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by WalterBright on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:18PM (#23357561)
You're right about the futures markets, but people don't normally consider that hoarding.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by edmundsauto on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:32PM (#23355158)
People hoard when there are shortages and/or urgent need and/or they read about it in the paper and/or they think they can make a quick buck. Nothing about "free market" precludes these conditions.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by WalterBright on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:28PM (#23355762)
Free markets don't have shortages.

For example, why don't we have shortages of beef and chicken, while fish are threatened with extinction?

For another, during the California and Yukon gold rushes, men rushed to the gold fields. Women rushed, too, but not to mine the earth for gold, but to mine the men for their gold.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by JoeAltmaier on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:30PM (#23355774)
That sounds naïve. What do we call it, when demand outstrips supply? A shortage. Maybe temporary, maybe a bubble, but real.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by WalterBright on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:47PM (#23356504)
I went to dinner once with friends. One friend asked his date what she'd like for dessert. She said crème brûlée. He called the waiter over, and said please get some for her. The waiter said they didn't have crème brûlée. My friend said, you don't understand, she wants crème brûlée, and I'll pay for it. The waiter reiterated that they didn't have crème brûlée and couldn't get it.

My friend finally said you don't understand. I don't care what you have to do to get crème brûlée, and I will pay for it.

The waiter said I understand, and shortly came back with crème brûlée. He had ordered it from another restaurant and hired a taxi to go get it.

The waiter got a nice tip, and my friend's date enjoyed crème brûlée for dessert. Everyone was happy.

And that's how "shortages" work in the free market.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by JoeAltmaier on Friday May 29, 2020 @10:38PM (#23357988)
In the modern world, there's just one source of many products. All the jeans in the world, from Korea. All the memory chips from a few factories.

All the anecdotes about going down the street for homely puddings, have little to do with the larger markets in the modern world.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by WalterBright on Friday May 29, 2020 @11:28PM (#23358231)
And yet the only time we have shortages is when the government steps in and fixes the price and/or the supply.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by JoeAltmaier on Sunday May 31, 2020 @08:38AM (#23369180)
Completely false and deliberately argumentative. Try harder.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by nickpp on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:44PM (#23356485)
The demand for yachts at 1$ apiece will always outstrip supply. Do we have a yacht shortage then? No, because yachts cost much more than 1$ apiece.

There are no shortages in free markets.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by TeMPOraL on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:02PM (#23356619)
That's getting absurd. The supply of a widget that I just made of paperclip at $1M apiece will never outstrip supply, even though there's just one of such widgets, because there's exactly zero demand at that price. You can define any shortage out of existence this way.

Perhaps your point is that, on a free market, the supply and demand will always meet at the right price point. Yes, that works long-term. Short-term, it doesn't, because sellers have every reason to look at the first and second derivative of the price - to hold off selling until they believe the demand for a product is about to reach its peak - and only then actually sell out their supply. This of course will cause the prices to go down, but by that time, the emergency may just be over, and a lot of people who needed the product then will have suffered and/or died.

The way I see it, this is literally the same mechanism stock trading is based on, and yet nobody here seems to have a problem understanding it there. Supply and demand, right? So if I know the demand tomorrow will be larger than today, I'll hold off selling my stocks, and I'll hold them until the point I see demand starting to fall back down.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by WalterBright on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:50PM (#23357419)
> Short-term, it doesn't,

Of course it does.

> hold off selling until they believe the demand for a product is about to reach its peak

Of course, people famously are unable to correctly predict when that peak is, and so your scenario will never happen. (Some will sell early, some late.)

If you're good at predicting stock prices better than everyone else who is trying to, you can make a billion in short order. Good luck!

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by TeMPOraL on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:46PM (#23356497)
> For example, why don't we have shortages of beef and chicken, while fish are threatened with extinction?

Because farmers can easily breed beef and chicken; fishermen cannot easily breed their own fish - the fish have a nasty habit of not respecting imaginary property lines in water, and you can't just put fences in an ocean.

It's worth noting that the free market is precisely why fish are threatened with extinction. It's a textbook tragedy of the commons, for which the solution is regulatory in nature.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by WalterBright on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:50PM (#23356519)
The tragedy of the commons is NOT free market. Anything communally owned is not part of the free market.

Fish farms are a real (and growing) thing.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by TeMPOraL on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:03PM (#23356621)
You have natural commons. Supply of fish is one.

> Fish farms are a real (and growing) thing.

Glad to hear that. This will enable the free market to work properly in this space.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by devit on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:16PM (#23354320)
Reselling at higher price is only profitable if the original seller are selling at a price that is too low because they failed to raise the price properly, and in that case the resellers are correcting the prices.

The advantage of having higher prices is that only people who REALLY need an article will buy it, so limited supplies will go to them.

For instance, if FFP2 masks are in a limited supply and cost $0.01 each, then everyone is going to try to buy in lots of 1000, and they will run out immediately, with the supply going to random people who probably will not even use most of them.

But if FFP2 masks cost $100 each, then people will buy and use them only when strictly needed, and they will be available for those who absolutely need them and are thus willing to pay any amount of money.

The only problems are:

- People who irrationally try to price gouge when the price is already correct, costing themselves money and making the article unavailable

- The potential inability of people who are highly needy to obtain loans or have sufficient basic income to purchase high-priced supplies

The former is fixed by providing the forecasts that are used to set prices, thus providing a credible insight that there will be no shortage at current prices, while the latter by having better ways of ensuring that loans are repaid and generally making it easier to give out loans.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by cortesoft on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:15PM (#23354957)
Price controls also encourage hoarding, though, because there is no cost to buying too much now.

Take toilet paper; people hoarded it, because it wasn't more expensive than normal and people feared they wouldn't be able to buy more in the future.

If the price went up, people might only buy what they need, because there is an extra cost to buying more than you need now, when the price might return to normal in the future.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by BurningFrog on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:10PM (#23354246)
With price controls, what happens is not that everyone has access to things.

It's that they sell out, and no one can buy any.

Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by colejohnson66 on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:54PM (#23356551)
So we need price controls and rationing.
Re:Amazon sellers marking products as collectible to get aro... by BurningFrog on Friday May 29, 2020 @10:39PM (#23357993)
That's a classic approach. Better that only price controls, probably.

But I believe the free market will handle it best.