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Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by dehrmann on Friday May 29, 2020 @01:10AM (#23346462)
> The first such transformation is to lower the third by one step to obtain a minor triad. For some reason, we perceive minor chords as sad or melancholy, sometimes a bit whiny.

I'd love to hear more on "some reason." In a way, it's so arbitrary, and maybe it's a cultural bias, but so sad. And the minor iv chord, so sad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQFtvAfHndE, right when he sings "when September ends," but there's are so many other examples.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by nicetryguy on Friday May 29, 2020 @01:27AM (#23346540)
> I'd love to hear more on "some reason."

Modern science has no idea! I've researched a fair bit. We don't know how the brain intreprets frequency combinations or why different ones sound good or bad together or evoke certain moods. Math can explain harmonics and the circle of fifths and how to assemble keys and modes, sure, but no one knows the Why or How of the internals between the ears. It is just cultural bias and repetition that we intrepret some note and chord combinations a certain way or is there something more fundamental going on with the hardware? Good question! Nobody knows.

All we have is anecdotal evidence and the trial and error of the musicians and composers who make it. Music is still a mystery.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by devin on Friday May 29, 2020 @01:37AM (#23346584)
I get a little annoyed at this notion of minor vs major. It's not binary. Subtle changes in tonality can shift back and forth between minor and major and diminished and augmented and so on. Most listeners will interpret a passage as "minor", but that doesn't mean it's so. Complex harmony can be reduced to minor or major but it robs it of all of its nuance.
Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by Stratoscope on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:44AM (#23347732)
One of my favorite examples of this is Dreams by Fleetwood Mac, but that may be because I've been practicing it on harmonica.

The song begins (with note names and relative major scale numbers):

    Now here you go again
    A   C    D   E  D C
    6   1    2   3  2 1
  (low)
But that's not how Stevie Nicks sings it. She starts the word "go" very flat, not quite all the way down to the Eb, but maybe 70 cents down from the E? And then she slides up to the E from there. Listen to her sing it and you will know what I'm talking about.

If you have an instrument where you can play either the straight notes or the notes with that slide, play it both ways and you will hear the difference.

This song is fun and easy to play on harmonica, including the pitch bends, if you get or make the right harp. You need a High C Melody Maker, which you can order from Seydel or you can take a Lee Oskar F Major and retune it into a C Melody Maker: raise the blow 3 from C to D, and raise the draw 5 and draw 9 from Bb to B.

How do you retune a harmonica? You file the reeds! Take off some weight near the free end of a reed and it will vibrate faster, giving it a higher pitch. More strangely, you can also lower the pitch a little by thinning the reed near the fixed end.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by nicetryguy on Friday May 29, 2020 @01:42AM (#23346616)
I mean if you move down 3 notes from any Major key you have your Minor key with the same exact notes, like C Major and A Minor.

I usually compose with a Major or Minor key in mind, but it's kind of a reference and not a be all end all. I like sharp 4's which work great usually and don't fit in either key. A flat 7 sounds great in a major key too, usually. I agree with you mostly, and i am annoyed by people who are adamant about the rules of a key, but it helps me to have a key in mind to both play and compose, even if i break the rules of it.

I find improvising on piano / guitar is nearly impossible if you don't know the key, even after many years of playing both.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by parenthesis on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:41AM (#23348398)
If you think in terms of modes, then using a sharp 4 in major you can think of as lydian (the 4th mode of major) or lydian dominant (has a flat 7 too, the 4th mode of melodic minor). In minor, there's lydian minor (the 4th mode of harmonic major).

Major but with a flat 7 is mixolydian (the fifth mode of major). It is everywhere in popular music.

My favourite thing at the moment is major 7 sharp 5 chords (or an augmented triad with also a major 7th). These chords arise in harmonic and melodic minor (in both cases chord 3), and in harmonic major (chord 6). But they also sound great as substitutions for what is 'supposed' to be a major 7 chord.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by mellavora on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:13AM (#23349549)
former brain scientist weighing in here. the brain seems to do some operations which resemble Fourier transforms. We also use logrithmic scaling. Combine those two and you get a lot of the harmonics.

So yes, you ask a good question, but in fact there is some knowledge of the hardware which supports the empirical observations of musicians and composers.

and yes, music is still a mystery. There is a lot more going on than scale, pitch, and harmonics.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by nineteen999 on Friday May 29, 2020 @01:14AM (#23346482)
> Minor chords? In pop and rock? They're used all over the place. It's more rare to not find one in a song. Minor chords with added sevenths, yeah, less common.

Yeah, exactly my first thought, pick any Beatles, Pink Floyd or Radiohead album for the most mainstream, off-the-top-of-my head examples.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by dehrmann on Friday May 29, 2020 @01:21AM (#23346509)
I deleted that part when I realized the author might have meant altered minor chords (like the minor iv in a major key), not just a generic I–V–vi–IV.
Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by viraptor on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:09AM (#23346742)
If you're into that, check out Adam Neely's channel. There's been a few videos on that and related topics: https://youtu.be/6c_LeIXrzAk

(Spoiler: lots of historical context about tuning systems, but also raising the issue of timbre of specific instruments)

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by fredsanford on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:35AM (#23348746)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqrfPnGy1tM

Leave My Girl Alone by Stevie Ray Vaughan is pretty much a master class for a guitar player that wants to mess around with 3rds and 7ths. At 3:19 is the best example of slightly messing with the 3rd and resolving to the 1 that I can remember hearing. The solos center around bent 3rds, 4ths, b5ths and 7ths.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by spopejoy on Friday May 29, 2020 @11:57AM (#23351529)
One thing is minor is unquestionably more dissonant than major; a major chord (in just intonation) is one of the most powerful sounds in existence which is why Baroque music almost always ends on major -- ie not to "sound happy" but to end with a bang.

This dissonance is related to why a composer like Bach has many, many compositions in minor (and massive ones like the B-minor mass), but not much later, you see composers using minor less and less as they moved towards more consonance (along with modulation of course).

For instance, in all of Mozart's violin sonatas there's only one minor. And it's freaking awesome ... but he didn't want to write more than that.

I think that while dissonance was interesting to Bach, it was less so through the rest of the common period, so that favors major.

I would also add that Salsa as a genre uses minor keys for happy tunes all the time.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by skeletor_999 on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:45AM (#23348073)
I think that the language we use might be limiting our analysis of this topic. We often describe minor keys as sad, but I don't think that really describes the emotion. Dark is also used, but doesn't necessarily imply sadness. Dark has problems too, as it's more vague.

Even though many people would describe certain songs as sounding sad, I don't think that it usually makes them feel sad. Can a song be sad if it doesn't make you feel sad? Heavy metal wouldn't be popular if it actually made you unhappy. Personally, it can improve my mood if I feel sad. Conversely, a really "bubblegummy" pop song would get on my nerves, but I would still describe it as sounding happy.

I'm not even sure that we could come up with better labels using common words. The emotions caused by music are pretty unique (at least for me).

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by canjobear on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:08AM (#23346732)
It’s a learned cultural association. People who have not been exposed to Western music don’t even distinguish consonance from dissonance.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27409816/

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by enriquto on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:39AM (#23348389)
> People who have not been exposed to Western music don’t even distinguish consonance from dissonance.

This is false. Any person with a functioning auditory system can hear the beating when you play two very close notes. It is also trivial to model mathematically, using elementary trigonometry. And the beating of periodic waves of very close frequency is precisely the dissonance (especially when the partials of the two notes are close, but do not coincide exactly).

Whether this audible beating or dissonance is "good" or "bad", and what is its place in music, is an entirely cultural phenomenon. But the phenomenon itself is not a cultural construction, it is a physical thing. Western music uses dissonance as a tension before a final resolution, and this is of course an arbitrary choice for our musical language.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by slaymaker1907 on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:19AM (#23347127)
This is incorrect. Consonance or dissonance is based on physical properties of the sounds. As the paper mentions, pleasantness of the consonance vs dissonance varies from culture to culture. The paper specifically mentions in the abstract that the other cultures were able to distinguish consonance from dissonance.
Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by zozbot234 on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:42AM (#23347280)
The physical property is generally called "roughness" (mostly to disambiguate wrt. the structural sense of 'dissonance' in composition) and is really more of a psychoacoustic property, since it relates to a feature of hearing known as critical bandwidth.
Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by recursive on Friday May 29, 2020 @01:51AM (#23346654)
> lower the third by one step to obtain a minor triad

But it's lowered by a half step...

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by djaychela on Friday May 29, 2020 @01:57AM (#23346681)
Depends on your language use - hrs talking in terms of semitones throughout the article, so thats correct; you're thinking in terms of whole /half steps (so you would be correct if the article was written in those terms).

I think talking in semitones helps clear up any misunderstanding over the explicit intervals present in a chord (and I've found that very useful when talking to guitar pupils who only know guitar and want to understand theory, particularly because the guitar neck is made of semitones), but if someone knows more scale theory (or plays piano), then talking in scale steps makes more sense.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by anjc on Friday May 29, 2020 @10:57AM (#23350652)
> Depends on your language use

'Step' has a specific meaning in music and it doesn't mean 'semitone'. Why not just use semitone seeing as that precisely describes what's intended? Conflating meanings seems like it could be confusing. "The tritone of this note is 6 steps up" "Gotcha, so the tritone of C is B" "No no, by step I currently mean tones, not semitones" "Ah, so 3 scale tones, ok" "No just 3 tones, or 6 steps" "Ok, I'll count 6 steps, 1,2,3,4..."...just use the correct word.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by main_gi on Friday May 29, 2020 @12:53PM (#23352393)
"Step" refers to an interval gap of "half step" or "whole step". In a way, I could see this as a "specific meaning", but since it refers to a group of intervals and not a single one, I would be quite open to a definition where '1 step' is always '1 half step', since both 'semitone' and 'half step' imply a less useful fundamental value of 2 half steps, even though music that involves only whole steps is quite dissonant and uncommon (the whole tone scale).

Your entire hypothetical dialogue is confusing as well, since your hypothetical person isn't using correct words either. The situation where C + 6 of something = B is with scale degrees (C moved 6 scale degrees up is B). And then you say "I currently mean tones", when 6 "tones" has the exact same grouping problem you are criticizing (because 'whole tone' and 'semitone' have the exact same meaning as 'whole step' and 'half step', only now 'scale tone' is in the group too). This artificially lengthens the example.

"The tritone of this note is 6 steps up" "Gotcha, so the tritone of C is B" "No, that's scale degrees, by 'step' I mean 'half step'." "Oh, so it's F# then." Done.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by anjc on Friday May 29, 2020 @01:46PM (#23353105)
> "Step" refers to an interval gap of "half step" or "whole step"

Right, but it does not mean 'half step'. It means one or other depending on the harmonic context, not the language context as said above. In the case in the article, a "step" down from the third is the second, not the minor third as the article says.

> I would be quite open to a definition where '1 step' is always '1 half step'

I don't understand this, sorry. Why not just use semitone?

> Since both 'semitone' and 'half step' imply a less useful fundamental value of 2 half steps

Western music isn't fundamentally chromatic either, so talking in semitones isn't particularly useful.

As you imply with reference to wholetones and dissonance, the words tone/semitone also give useful melodic information that we've all already learned. E.g. raising the 5th a tone is consonant, raising the major 3rd a tone is dissonant. Of course you could teach students that not all steps/two steps are the same, depending on scale degree, but then you're back to square one, just with different words for semitone/tone.

> Your entire hypothetical dialogue is confusing as well, since your hypothetical person isn't using correct words either.

Yeah it's meant to be confusing, my point is that overloading terms gets confusing quickly, at least for me.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by main_gi on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:51PM (#23353991)
I realized when reading your response that you use "tone" for "whole tone". So from my perspective you're overloading "tone", which could mean semitone, whole tone, or scale degree tone, to only mean two half-steps, but to me, it's like your perspective that in the article the word "step" is overloaded to mean one half-step. I think it is more useful, if you were to define fundamental unit of pitch as one half-step, since there are of course many intervals that you cannot describe with just a number of whole-tones. It's one syllable and corresponds to one note = 1, instead of the notion of "half" and then you have to explain how the difference between E and F is '1 half', I think it is a mess.

And - I personally analyze music in semitones, not scale degrees. I find it much more useful. Even though that's not considered "standard" there are some things even standard theory has to use chromatic language to describe, like the tritone (you could get into "#4 or b5" but that would require a lot more than just saying 6 semitones).

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by recursive on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:31PM (#23353732)
> "Step" refers to an interval gap of "half step" or "whole step"

What? I'm lost. How can a step possibly mean a half step? A step is a whole step. Anything else is madness.

Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by main_gi on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:32PM (#23355156)
Pshh... Unfortunately things aren't that consistent or that would have been pointed out much earlier. C to C# and C to D are both considered 'steps' (see 'stepwise motion'). That is to say, "half" and "whole" are treated like two different types of steps in traditional theory. (that and "whole" is a much less useful fundamental unit as I said before)
Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by recursive on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:45PM (#23356493)
Today I learned...
Re:Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third by BartoszMilewski on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:58PM (#23354080)
Good point, it is ambiguous. I changed it to "semitone."