Retro or inside-joke t-shirts do a great job of communicating "hipness". Your co-workers don't have to know that the vintage & aged Commodore 64 t-shirt you wear was bought new @ Kmart in '85

As a semaphore the humble necktie existed way before the advent of these newfangled printed T's and quite frankly it harkens back to the origins of computing technology way better but you know I'm just an anachronistic egotist so what do I know?

The whole t-shirt and hoodie scene basically started in California and emerged from the nexus of homebrew computing and the engineering culture of the day which was basically a mix of academic, surfer and hippie culture (yes I know drastic oversimplification) but if I had to pick a moment in history it was when the commodore 64 engineering team went rogue and challenged the 'suits' by wearing t-shirts to the office that the whole idea that engineers wear downright casual clothing began

I feel like it doesn't serve us any more and the younger generation is getting lost in the toxic sauce and we've just become the same as the suits but with way less professionalism but that's probably a romanticized notion of what corporacy is based on my own experiences running early software from Apple when it still kind of was a shirt and tie corporacy (before the black turtleneck became the standard)

Anyway, you'll probably defend your right to wear a t-shirt to the death while claiming 'what you wear doesn't matter' so ask yourself whether what you wear actually does matter?

For me, the T-shirt and jeans became my official 'uniform' back in the 90s. I used to keep a full suit, shirt, tie, and shoes in an office closet. These were strictly for client meetings (on wall st.). When sales no longer cared if I changed (or even asked me NOT to change) I realized the tides had changed, and 'techies' were expected to be dressed to run Ethernet, Haul boxes of mag tape, and be comfortable in front of a screen for 16 hours.

Now, I generally say, sales calls need 1 suit, 1 geek.

Bro I don't identify as a geek and if that's a label you want to put on yourself you'd better ask whether you have a right to call yourself a professional

I don't identify as a 'bro' and if that's a label you want to put on yourself, you'd better ask whether you have a right to call yourself a professional...

See how silly that sounds? To me 'geek', 'coder', 'programmer' are all compliments - I worked dam hard to earn those labels.

Geeks have a shared passion - Geek of Math, Geek of Law, Car Geeks, etc (look up geek code for some much better examples). A geek calling another person a geek is generally a compliment. An acknowledgement that they know what they're doing.

Coders and programmers were out in the trenches grinding code before 'software engineer' was even a thing.

There's lots of words like that but you're ignoring the perception framing the reality.

Usage of the word within the in-group may mean one thing but from the out-group it means a whole different thing.

You're basically calling yourself a slave and justifying it with blissful ignorance.

You're saying 'words mean what I say they mean and I'm ignoring all shades of meaning but the ones I choose'.

and you can't see that in a professional culture if some people are "suits" and some people are "geeks" it's a drastic disadvantage situation in favour of stereotypes over reality.

And plus bro I wouldn't call you bro at the office but you'd surely call me a geek.

dam - lot of assumptions there, not to mention presumption of authority.

Just for the record, I don't feel 'disadvantaged' or 'stereotyped'. If people feel their professional standing/opportunities are based on dress code, title or hanging around hoping to be the first person the boss notices - I'd say they seem more 'disadvantaged' then me. But that's just my opinion.

Seems like we're at an impasse - Let's just call it here. You can be a 'software engineer' and I'll be a 'Geek'.

edit: swap 'bro' for 'software engineer' as I could see 'bro' be taken as condescension.

Reminds me of the suits are back submarine article by PG.

That is an awesome connection and very grateful for it (http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html)

However it's also way off the mark because it doesn't treat the professional dress from a technologist standpoint but rather a socio-cultural one and doesn't go into the history of the shirt and tie (notice I didn't say suit and tie) as a communication medium

There's enough information here for a whole volume but whatever it's worth humans require signals to communicate and in the absence of something definite they'll use anything at hand

The traditional professional dress deals with social communication concerns we're no longer even aware of let alone leveraging to advantage and it's a pity to watch a whole generation of would-be professionals on a level the world has never seen in its billion year history lose the thread as it were and bring their shabby hand me downs to the arena when they could stand on the side of tradition and button up like their ancestors in the arts and sciences did for centuries before them

> a pity... side of tradition

Not sure what to make of this really. You're not wrong, there is something to the subject of course.

Still, I can't help feeling like it's a perspective from a different planet. Different folks are into different things, and that's fine. But hoping that the majority will get serious about a niche subject/behavior is usually a recipe for disappointment.

Personally, I like to dress on the nice side of casual (vaguely similar to Steve Jobs, sans turtleneck) and wouldn't be caught dead in impractical clothing outside of a wedding.

Bro it's the constant struggle between the individual and the group there's nothing new here

Anyone can examine the evidence and agree as to the evidence but disagree as to what the evidence entails

I look at the modern state of corporacy and the rise of working from home and I see we ought to go back to traditional principles whereas the majority view it as an incentive to dress even further down

I'm not sure about you but I don't feel good about siding with the hoi polloi on principle and for that reason alone I'd rather wear a shirt with a collar than a dainty T

Edit: by the way do you believe that every person you see in a shirt and tie is suffering in an impractical outfit?

Yes. I go to DC occasionally on business and the standard dress there is ridiculous for the swampy climate. It doesn't work most of the year in Southern California either, too hot. The thing that enables it is climate-killing air conditioning.

I don't care for anything tight around my neck. Shoes with no traction are another one of my pet peeves.

I think something like the traditional Asian suits would be the most practical.

There's something you haven't thought through all the way I can guarantee it

Asian --> Nehru, Kurta, Mandarin, etc