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Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by sideshowb on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @05:41AM (#23309012)
I'm not particularly outraged about what Cummings did under lockdown. Having a medical emergency in the family ourselves a few weeks back we were actually encouraged by healthcare workers to do something similar, though in fact we decided against.

I am outraged that he didn't at the time realise that others may need to do similar, and issue clarification on the rules to publicise that this sort of thing was permissible.

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by kybernetikos on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @05:49AM (#23309059)
I agree with this take. I think almost everyone can understand why he would have done what he did, but that's because lots of people were caught in similar situations and had to make the difficult decision whether or not to follow the official guidance that he was involved in making.

Lots of people did follow the guidance despite it being really difficult for them to do so, and it's yet another story where it seems to be a case of 'rules for thee, but not for me'.

The right way to handle this would have been to confess and apologise and say it was a lapse of judgement - I think lots of people, understanding the difficult situation he was in would have accepted that. To brazen it out and claim it was good judgement and responsible behaviour is to admit that the government guidance and response as a whole was flawed.

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by sideshowb on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @05:54AM (#23309088)
I think it's more a case of social attitudes being about 50% split* between "follow all rules whatever" and "use them as guidance but apply your own judgement".

Of course when making the rules you should bloody well get them right in order to be fair to people with the first kind of attitude.

*if I remember correctly from my previous work on the british social attitudes survey

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by cm2187 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:09AM (#23309179)
Absolutely. It’s like the imperial college guy. I think he deserves an outrage for his fantasist models, but him not respecting the lockdown after he recovered from covid, and could neither infect or be infected, is common sense. The lockdown was aimed at reducing the pace of infections, not to enforce some petty rules when they don’t make sense. The outrage is really only about loving the rule over what it is trying to achieve.
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by aembleton on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:24AM (#23309276)
> could neither infect or be infected,

Have you got a source for that? Sarah Gilbert, last month thought it was possible to be infected more than once: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/health-52344676/coronavirus-poss...

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by Jefro118 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @10:19AM (#23311426)
Evidence from coronaviruses that cause common colds show the ability to be reinfected but even in that case immunity still lasts for months rather than days. In the case of a more severe disease like SARS, antibody responses have been found after 17 years. We don't know enough about Covid to make a good guess about immunity but it seems unlikely that someone could be reinfected days after recovering.
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by cm2187 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:30AM (#23309325)
I am sure it is possible, but we haven’t seen any significant number of reinfection. There were stories in South Korea but apparently they concluded it was on account of unreliable tests.

And the questions about how long the immunity lasts are about how many months not how many days.

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by Mirioron on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:21AM (#23309256)
Sadly, when you have rules in society you will get people who will try to enforce those rules just because they are the rules. In some sense it is logical - this will get bad rules changed quicker, but in another sense it just causes harm to people.
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by leakyPipes on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:43AM (#23309440)
How did he know he actually had covid?

At the time, tests were strictly rationed to hospital patients and healthworkers.

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by cm2187 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @07:08AM (#23309616)
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by PuffinBlue on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:15AM (#23309220)
It's not so much the travel to Durham, it's the travel to Barnard Castle ( a 60 mile round trip) to 'test' his eys, including a nice little walk along the river bank - on a day that just so happened to be his wife's birthday.

There's is no fathomable justification for that and exposed his contempt for the rules.

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by wildmusings on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:25AM (#23309284)
I'd be contemptuous of such stupid rules too. How is going for a walk outdoors a problem? Why is it relevant how far he drove to get there? I can't help but think that the Brits have taken the scolding aspect of this lockdown way too far.
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by Nursie on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:42AM (#23309431)
> How is going for a walk outdoors a problem? Why is it relevant how far he drove to get there?

The lockdown rules the country was under set these rules as a condition - you may leave the house only to exercise, and you may not travel to get to a place to exercise. This was to stop people going to tourist spots, petrol stations and other places they may interact with others.

You're right in a way - a single family doing it probably causes no actual harm because they're the only people present. Now - who gave this unelected government advisor special permission to go there and be that single family, while nobody else could, and was locked down hard?

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by vinay427 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:33AM (#23309346)
Because this government decided it was a problem, then chose to look the other way when Cummings ignored these rules. Countless people have been forced to let their loved ones be buried or cremated without traditional ritual closure, or have not been there through the last days of others, all because the government convinced them that it was the right thing to do for public health. Maybe it was, but it should strike a nerve when someone professing these guidelines ignores them for a much sillier purpose and is lauded for his "integrity" and qualities as a "father." Were those ordinary Britons bad sons, daughters, siblings, and parents for not evading the same rules for their loved ones? Did they act without integrity?
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by wildmusings on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @07:00AM (#23309548)
A funeral, attended by many people, is rather different than a drive and walk through nature with the people you live with. Anyhow, the hypocrisy angle makes sense. Two strikes for everyone involved: one for coming up with the stupid rules and two for then breaking them themselves/covering it up.
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by leonk on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:39AM (#23309409)
Even if it wasn't a problem (which it was, at the time he did it). It's his covering up of his actions + colleagues backing him up, which is the real issue here.

He's so blatantly lying about the "eye sight test", it shows a total lack of respect for the public and his role as part of the UK government. They should be, if anything, following the rules more than anyone else in order to set an example.

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by sideshowb on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:35AM (#23309369)
At one point we were not allowed to drive for anything non-essential. (was this the case for Cummings at the time? it's still the case where I live in Wales)

Stated reasons were (1) reducing load on health services from road accidents (which has worked - my friend in A&E says he's "never sat around on his arse so much at work before"); (2) reduce transmission of virus at fuel stations, risk to breakdown services, etc

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by makomk on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:58AM (#23309539)
The restrictions in Wales were generally stricter than the English ones. In England, people were somewhat advised against driving to national parks or other green spaces to walk, but ... well, read the wording of the Government's own contemporary FAQ and see: https://web.archive.org/web/20200402224312/https://www.gov.u... Quite vague and fuzzy, isn't it?

If I remember rightly, there was actually a bit of a controversy over this because the police in some areas got it into their heads that no-one should be driving to places to walk full stop and started pushing that message and complaining about people not following it, even though that wasn't actually a rule. Though it's entirely possible a lot of the media coverage of that has also been memory-holed and only exists in the Wayback machine; the BBC in particular have been completely rewriting articles a lot lately.

(The restriction to one session of exercise per day was also only legally enforceable in Wales and not England, for some reason, even though it was part of the advice in both.)

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by Nursie on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @07:31AM (#23309779)
> If I remember rightly, there was actually a bit of a controversy over this because the police in some areas got it into their heads that no-one should be driving to places to walk full stop

There was a law mismatch here. The government were saying you can't do that, however the legal powers they had (and the powers they delegated to the police) were not sufficient to actually stop people for some of the things they were stopping them for.

I think Derbyshire police were the worst for that.

So it's possible here that Dominic Cummings didn't break the lockdown laws, but he certainly broke the lockdown rules his own government were telling the public.

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by wildmusings on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:56AM (#23309529)
Driving around was one of the ways I kept my sanity through all this. I'm sorry your government came up with such stupid rules.
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by sideshowb on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @07:00AM (#23309550)
Yeah I'm not very enamoured with Welsh rules at the moment, especially the fact they are only revised every 3 weeks. Personally I'm lucky to live in the countryside, really feel for those trapped in cities though.
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by Nursie on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @07:33AM (#23309789)
I'm happy in my city, but then I live in the centre of a small-ish city on the South coast, we have a small garden and there are parks nearby.

I feel for people stuck in apartments!

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by DanBC on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @07:24AM (#23309727)
> Why is it relevant how far he drove to get there?

He drove from an area with high rates of Covid-19, with his covid-19 positive wife, to an area with low rates of Covid-19.

This is entirely the point of lockdown -- to reduce the spread of the disease.

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by afandian on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @07:05AM (#23309583)
Given his involvement in government, it's entirely possible that he himself was involved in writing the rules.
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by rbg246 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @07:45AM (#23309894)
It's different if you did Vs the guy who made the rules. When you make the rules you should be following them.
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by adwww on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:05AM (#23309159)
I think the outrage is more at the cabinet, and the attorney general no less, all defending what he did.

Saying "he was just being a good father" is insulting to all the other dads who didn't break lockdown.

Also, the rewriting of history, implying all along that you were just meant to use good judgement.

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by DanBC on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:23AM (#23309266)
I think the other thing that's incredibly annoying is the queue of MPs that support him. When the AG comes out to say that breaking the law is okay or Secretary fo State for the Department for Health and Social Care says it's okay to break the guidelines we know there's a serious problem.
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by cm2187 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:02AM (#23309138)
But didn’t he quote the rule saying that in cases like the care of the young child, the rules may not be practical and should be applied as well as practically possible? If the rules indeed had this clause, doesn’t that address exactly your second point?
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by makomk on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:24AM (#23309277)
Yes, which made all the bullshit media emotional appeals about how other people who followed the rules were forced to wait as their loved ones died alone in hospital, how they couldn't comfort them and go to their funerals, etc rather dubious. (Especially since coronavirus spreads really well through funerals and hospitals and really badly through brick walls and visits to outdoor locations after the end of the likely infectious period.)

What made that tactic especially fragrant was the fact that Cummings also had a dying family member in hospital who he and his other family members couldn't visit, comfort, etc during the same time period and rather than consider that maybe this might be a reason to step away from that argument, everyone seems to have doubled down and used his family's grief as proof that they were right.

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by sideshowb on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:06AM (#23309166)
Tbh I haven't checked the details, but if that was the case, then the government was criminally poor at communicating the rules given the sacrifices others have made in attempts to follow them.
Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by UK-Al05 on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @06:27AM (#23309299)
There is a rule. He even quoted the rule.

Quite frankly, I think a lot of people don't like him and they're putting the boot in to get him to resign.

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by leonk on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @08:35AM (#23310315)
The rules were somewhat ambiguous, which allowed him to break them (on the "childcare exception").

But his account of his actions is so untruthful. It is obvious to most that being on a remote farm would be a nicer environment to isolate than a house in central London. This simply _must_ have been a factor in his decision. He did not even contemplate seeking childcare support at home, he stated this himself in his press conference, it hadn't even crossed his mind.

His trip was not safe, and should have been used as a last resort. Is that the impression you got? That he had exhausted all other options?

If you had, then I would say you are even more political motivated than those you are saying are looking to give him the "boot".

Re:UK government advisor caught out by Wayback machine by DanBC on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @07:30AM (#23309770)
His point was incoherent though.

He claimed he put his child and covid-19 positive wife in a car and drove 250 miles to get child care. But he had childcare available to him locally, and he didn't make use of the childcare when he got to Durham.

He then claimed that he didn't know if it was safe for him to drive or not (his wife can drive, why didn't she?) so he put them all in the car and drove to Barnard Castle.

He's trying to make use of the safeguarding exemption in the law to say he fled London because his family was at risk. But that would only cover the travel from London to Durham. It doesn't cover the travel from Durham back to this risky dangerous home in London.