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Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by onion2k on Monday May 25, 2020 @04:58AM (#23299336)
The idea that we will have some abstraction that will someday (in the foreseeable future) save us from all of this difficult work sounds very far fetched to me, and I can’t imagine how that would work.

The problem here is that word "all". It's never going to be easy to do everything. Some part will be hard. That's where the value lies, and that's what your best people focus on. But everything else will be abstracted away. It's already happened. 30 years ago making a GUI was hard, but VB changed that. Then making a web app was hard, but PHP changed that. Then app layout was hard, and Bootstrap changed that. Then ML was hard, and Torch changed that. Every hard problem gets a 90% working solution that's more than good enough for most companies. There'll always be a few companies that pay people to work in the last 10%, so the problem never really disappears, but fewer and fewer people work on it.

The key to keeping growth going in tech is to keep finding new problems, not to keep everyone working on the same old problems.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by wongarsu on Monday May 25, 2020 @05:16AM (#23299428)
Even with just the advances in better programming languages (and newer versions of old languages) and better IDEs we have achieved tremendous productivity increases in the last 30 years. It's just that so far the amount of work has grown to absorb the added productivity.

There are some parallels to induced demand in road construction: when you build a new road to ease traffic, traffic increases to use up that capacity. But that isn't a sign that demand is infinite, it's just that demand is limited by the available resources. If you keep building roads, at some point they will become emptier. Similarly, at some point development productivity will outpace demand, and we will start optimizing our own jobs away.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by chrisco255 on Monday May 25, 2020 @06:07AM (#23299653)
I'm not convinced. I think new abstractions beget new abstractions. There's so much left to explore in software. Imagine being in the first century of the printing press and imagining that the press is going to put all these poor monks out of business or that there's not much left to explore with writing. Speaking of writing, how much has our word processing technology succeeded in making authors obsolete?
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by lentil_soup on Monday May 25, 2020 @07:02AM (#23299896)
I don't think word processors are the right analogy.

In your example programmers are the monks or the press makers. At some point we're not needed any more (at least at the same scale) since word processors have already been built.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by wongarsu on Monday May 25, 2020 @07:45AM (#23300092)
Printers are actually a great analogy. Printing presses became more sophisticated, but the printing business grew even further, guaranteeing lots of jobs in the printing industry. But at some point we reached peak demand, but presses continued requiring fewer and fewer workers. Today there are still people manning the presses of publishing houses and newspapers, but in 200 years of improvement we made the job a much smaller niche.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by wolco on Monday May 25, 2020 @09:22AM (#23300752)
I worked in the print industry when I was younger. The increase in Posters / bill boards / custom cardboard standing displays actually created so many more print jobs. From phd book binding to custom business print jobs to online demand printing there are so many more things we are printing now.

There are more newspapers but they are all owned by larger players which means different types of machines and parts.

A better example might have been blacksmiths. Although the amount of people making cars is a larger group.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by petra on Monday May 25, 2020 @10:24AM (#23301424)
Table 2 shows negative job growth in the printing industry in the last 10 years: https://collegegrad.com/industries/printing
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by wolco on Monday May 25, 2020 @03:40PM (#23304169)
That's too narrow of a group. What about 3-D printing.

If you read the whole article it shows a path to new jobs...

Digital printing has become the fastest growing industry segment as printers embrace this technology. Most commercial printers now do some form of digital printing.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by petra on Monday May 25, 2020 @03:51PM (#23304286)
Printing traditionally deals with 2D objects.

Manufacturing deals with making 3D objects.I think 3D printing belongs there.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by chrisco255 on Monday May 25, 2020 @05:17PM (#23305081)
The 3D printing revolution implies a fusion of manufacturing and printing. This just underscores my point though: abstractions beget new abstractions. 3D printing is an entirely new category that is just starting to come into maturity and reach mass adoption. Who knows what the implications of that are? It could cause a boom in custom made, limited run products. It could help to end our reliance on China for mass production. It's not obvious to me it will lead to less jobs in manufacturing.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by nradov on Monday May 25, 2020 @11:20AM (#23301963)
There are more programmers coding word processors now than ever before.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by visarga on Monday May 25, 2020 @06:29AM (#23299752)
> how much has our word processing technology succeeded in making authors obsolete?

makes more sense to think about GPT-2 like language models replacing authors, than word processors

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by contextfree on Monday May 25, 2020 @02:47PM (#23303668)
presumably those models will be (are already being) incorporated into word processors?
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by sakoht on Monday May 25, 2020 @10:04AM (#23301216)
Demand for the things we want _today_ will be met. But progress leads to new demands, and they are more complicated.

Anthropologists estimate that the work week was at 20 hrs at the end of the Stone Age. We have been inventing new problems in the vacuum created by our successes for, literally, millennia.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by barrkel on Monday May 25, 2020 @06:23AM (#23299726)
I think it was easier to build an acceptable GUI in 2000 with VB or Delphi than it is today with our web stacks.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by sokoloff on Monday May 25, 2020 @06:40AM (#23299795)
I also think the standard of “what is acceptable?” was much lower back then.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by rsynnott on Monday May 25, 2020 @09:59AM (#23301173)
I'm not sure that's true. Here's the UI hall of shame, highlighting the worst of the 90s: http://hallofshame.gp.co.at/shame.htm

Most of the stuff there would be just... normal now. It's quite unusual for SPAs to have a decent consistent UX. And the slowness would never have been tolerated back in the day.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by contextfree on Monday May 25, 2020 @03:01PM (#23303816)
the author of that page seems to believe that mouse hover feedback is bad, even when it's a simple highlight?!
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by barrkel on Monday May 25, 2020 @08:55AM (#23300468)
I think that's mostly it. Design has a much larger role, and form-oriented development with common controls doesn't cut it. You couldn't imagine an app like Facebook in a forms-style UI, it's almost ludicrous to imagine.

Looked at retrospectively, forms were just one step above green screen applications on a terminal, transplanting one set of structural idioms to another, like for like.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by nogabebop23 on Monday May 25, 2020 @09:20AM (#23300729)
If forms are essentially terminal apps, is FB much different from a teletype news service, with hyper-filtered content and an infinite set of data sources?

I see massive sea change in connectivity and immersiveness of today, but not really in what we're trying to achieve.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by lonelappde on Tuesday May 26, 2020 @02:17AM (#23307984)
2001 was Mad OS X Cocoa. 2020 is JavaScript. The standard for UI was higher then, but was lost to the almighty god of cloud-based web apps.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by nogabebop23 on Monday May 25, 2020 @09:16AM (#23300683)
or MS Access, or Hypercard - we've had productivity boosters, just never anything remotely close to eliminating the inherently hard act of "building software".
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by visarga on Monday May 25, 2020 @07:52AM (#23300127)
Yes, but that GUI was only doing local work, we have much higher requirements today.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by barrkel on Monday May 25, 2020 @08:51AM (#23300440)
The GUI was doing local work, but the database could be remote. Delphi's name is even a pun on Oracle.

I'm not saying they were halcyon days. I'm saying that the effort to do things is not necessarily less these days, in part because we have different expectations (not necessarily requirements) today.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by petra on Monday May 25, 2020 @07:15AM (#23299941)
It's even easier to do so with no-code, low-code tools.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by JacobiX on Monday May 25, 2020 @08:20AM (#23300247)
In 2000 using VB, you can build a GUI, make a working Windows application using a minimum amount of code. Also the documentation (msdn) and the community was really nice.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by collyw on Monday May 25, 2020 @11:23AM (#23301992)
20 years on MS Access has been one of the quickest lowest code way to build a functional application. What a mess everything is these days in comparison.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by barrkel on Monday May 25, 2020 @08:49AM (#23300417)
If you wanted to build a data entry / collection app with basic validation, querying, filtering etc. you could easily do that with no code in 2000-era Delphi.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by petra on Monday May 25, 2020 @10:30AM (#23301472)
With support of today's API's/datasets , you could build more complex apps with similar levels of effort.
Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by narag on Monday May 25, 2020 @08:14AM (#23300220)
Every hard problem gets a 90% working solution that's more than good enough for most companies.

I very much agree with your comment, but allow me a little nitpicking. Solutions aren't 90%, more like 50% or 20% or whatever. It may sound absurd to discuss a number there, since it's more like a way of speaking, just wanted to add that for most problems the solution is barely better than the default option.

In other words, there's still a lot of room for improvement, huge actually but, as you say, it might come in small pieces.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by rsynnott on Monday May 25, 2020 @09:57AM (#23301160)
> 0 years ago making a GUI was hard, but VB changed that. Then making a web app was hard, but PHP changed that.

Fortunately, the SPA Plague made it very difficult again.

Re:Software will eat software in a remote-first world by collyw on Monday May 25, 2020 @11:25AM (#23302003)
Plus kubernetes / autoscaling on the backend.....