News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by yuribro on Monday May 18, 2020 @01:50PM (#23225838)
I would suggest to just install OpenBSD and try it (maybe in a VM?), one of the selling points is the simplicity of the setup process. It can be a one evening project.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by thisrod on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:23PM (#23229959)
> maybe in a VM?

But that's the thing. The real benefits from OpenBSD come when it's the only system you need. Who cares how simple and elegant the guest system is, if you need to maintain a linux installation to host it?

A project on the scale of OpenBSD can't possibly support all the hardware that's out there. And the system is under active development, so there are constant regressions in hardware support. That's fine for John Carmack: he can fire up ed and fix a kernel panic, that's how he winds down after work. But the vision that attracts me to OpenBSD is a box in a closet that Google doesn't have the key to, which sits there for 6 months receiving my email and serving my homepage, takes 10 minutes to update, then sits there for the next 6 months; maybe once every 5 years I'd need to read a manpage and port my smtpd.conf to a new syntax. Hardware regressions are what stop that from happening.

The OpenBSD developers are getting what they want, and good luck to them. The shame is that a little bit of coordination, where they chose one model of ThinkPad every other year and committed to supporting it for a decade, would make the system so much more useful for so many other people.

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by ender341341 on Monday May 18, 2020 @09:49PM (#23230517)
> But that's the thing. The real benefits from OpenBSD come when it's the only system you need. Who cares how simple and elegant the guest system is, if you need to maintain a linux installation to host it?

I don't think he's suggesting that as the long term way to use it but as an introduction to the system.

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by hedora on Monday May 18, 2020 @09:14PM (#23230292)
> box in a closet

https://github.com/elad/openbsd-apu2

Mine is 4(?) years old, and has never crashed. I use it every day. If you want something newer, or have 10x the power budget:

https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/ryzen-build-for-openbsd

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by busterarm on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:26PM (#23231032)
Yeah it generally works pretty happily with most hardware in modern X/T Thinkpads. Happily running it on my X270. It's missing the 802.11ac and Bluetooth support but I'll live. I bought a BT-W2 so that my Bluetooth headphones will work and OpenBSD handles it swimmingly.

There's very little that I can't do with it versus my Linux workstation, at least for my needs.

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by thisrod on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @05:19AM (#23232901)
Thanks. I might try building one of those.

But the problem remains: eventually, the next upgrade will crash every time you boot it, and what will you do then?

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by wrycoder on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:47PM (#23231117)
> takes 10 min to update

If only that were true. And they do releases every six months. And you are not supposed to skip one, or you’re on your own.

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by dEnigma on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:46PM (#23226735)
A selling point in comparison to what? A "one evening project" installation doesn't seem to be all that amazing by any standard, in my opinion.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by greggyb on Monday May 18, 2020 @06:50PM (#23229301)
I think that the parent is saying that "trying OpenBSD" is a "one evening project". The installation should be complete within just a couple minutes.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by int_19h on Monday May 18, 2020 @06:52PM (#23229320)
I don't see how one could try OpenBSD, and derive any conclusions other than, "oh great, yet another Unix", in a single evening.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by hedora on Monday May 18, 2020 @09:17PM (#23230316)
To get it working at all, you have to find the manual.

Once you find the manual, you’ll realize it’s well-documented and simple, and that simply using it has great educational value.

If those things don’t appeal to you, it’s probably not the OS for you. It takes about an evening to figure this out, in my experience.

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by hackmiester on Monday May 18, 2020 @09:48PM (#23230514)
But those things apply to Linux distributions too, e.g., Debian.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by wilsonthewhale on Monday May 18, 2020 @09:59PM (#23230574)
Having experienced both operating systems, Debian gets nowhere close. The Debian wiki is full of outdated articles.

OpenBSD's manual pages and online FAQ combined have never failed to answer a question I've had about the base system. It's really that good.

The ArchWiki is close behind in usefulness, but that's maintained by its community and article quality varies.

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by blaser-waffle on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @01:47PM (#23237831)
The Arch wiki is great. Reminds me of the old Gentoo wiki from way back when Gentoo was the new hotness. I'm not even an Arch user but documentation as to how things like Window Managers work is fantastic.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by yuribro on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @02:38AM (#23231932)
In my experience, the first step in trying out a new system is installing it, configuring everything (from network connectivity to various peripherals), installing your favorite software and so on. This gives a good idea on how to work with the system, how good the documentation is (as another poster already mentioned), how simple and consistent everything is.

Installing in a VM is not the best differentiation, since in many OSs these experience was streamlined and everything usually works out of the box, but the customization part is still a good example.

Of course in the end, you might get to a setup similar to other OSs - running a browser in a windows manager and a buch of other common tools (IDEs, editors, productivity apps), but the way you get there, and the amount of problems you encounter along the way is a major part of using an OS.

I think you can get a good impression in a few hours, and see how it's different. (For example, I had a similar experience with NixOS: In a few hours you see how radically different it is and learn how it fits you)

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by erk__ on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:03PM (#23226034)
I recently went and installed FreeBSD on my laptop. It has until now been a pretty good experiance. The main reason I went with FreeBSD over OpenBSD at the moment was that NVIDIA only supports FreeBSD. FreeBSD is also pretty simple (at least compared to linux) so it wins there as well.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:29PM (#23226468)
By NVIDIA supporting FreeBSD you mean that half-assed thing with binary drivers allowing you to get a picture, but no CUDA?

Or is that old information which i should forget?

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by loeg on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:40PM (#23226649)
Sure, the factual parts of that are accurate. Your opinion colors some of the adjectives. OpenGL works well, for example. No CUDA, no NVENC/DEC.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by erk__ on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:35PM (#23228020)
Well it is a bit of a grey zone but I have gotten Vulkan to work and I think at least NVENC works as well. The solution is rather hacky though. It extracts libraries from the Linux driver and loads them when you run programs. A look at the code make it seems like cuda is getting loaded as well so it may work.

https://github.com/shkhln/nvshim

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by loeg on Monday May 18, 2020 @05:51PM (#23228805)
Nvshim is an amazing project, but it is a far cry from official Nvidia support for CUDA/NVENC/NVDEC.

(All Nvidia would have to do is build another binary; it's still chatting with the same driver blob internally so it's not really clear to me why they don't bother compiling it for FreeBSD.)

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday May 18, 2020 @06:57PM (#23229351)
They could even do it with less churn, because of https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/blob/master/sys/conf/opti... FreeBSD easily achieves binary compatibility with earlier versions. So no need to mess around with DKMS or their own thing. Or at least less so.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by floatboth on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:39PM (#23230072)
> FreeBSD easily achieves binary compatibility with earlier versions. So no need to mess around with DKMS

Binary compatibility is for userspace programs, not kernel modules.

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:54PM (#23230177)
Ahem. Tell that to all the binary drivers for network cards and raid controllers which relied on that functionality, which i happened to use not all that long ago.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by loeg on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:53PM (#23230169)
GP's link is to the COMPAT_FREEBSD binary compatibility for earlier versions of FreeBSD, oddly. I don't think it (or linux emulation) has anything to do with Nvidia's needs re: CUDA/NVENC.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:58PM (#23230207)
It means you have a module from some vendor, or something similar to the NVIDIA installer for linux, which technically is nothing else than a batch compiled makefile, spitting out a kernel-module made for version 1.2.3 while you are running 2.4.5. It worked. I don't know why it shouldn't now.

Edit: I'm not having any FreeBSD systems in use right now, so i don't know if they changed the defaults. What i remember is at least the last two versions were compiled into GENERIC, so you didn't even had to compile your own kernel when that range backwards was enough.

Similar thing in NetBSD, a loooong time ago, even their own driver for 3Com905 relied on the equivalent of that functionality. That caught me by surprise, because i used NetBSD like Gentoo, found some Compat foobarjurassicBSD, wondered why i should use that at all, and had no working net. Fun! :-)

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by loeg on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:37PM (#23230786)
That's not how the nvidia binary blob works in FreeBSD. Instead, there is some compiled-from-source-code OS portability glue, which is compiled against the target version of the FreeBSD kernel. Then the binary blob links the portability glue.

I believe something similar is done in Linux. The difference in experience may come from FreeBSD maintaining a stable KBI over a release version (e.g., stable/12), while Linux aggressively does not maintain any KBI stability; hence the need for DKMS/akmods.

This is unrelated to COMPAT_FREEBSD.

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by LargoLasskhyfv on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @07:45AM (#23233766)
Sigh. Been typing too fast as usual. I know thats not the way the Nvidia-thing works, instead doing the glue-thing which interfaces to the binary blob like you mentioned. But it could (instead of that)! That's what i meant to say.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by mycall on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:20PM (#23229940)
If anyone has any clout to get this to happen, John Carmack perhaps would.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday May 18, 2020 @05:03PM (#23228343)
While i respectfully congratulate the authors of that shim for their ingenuity, that is no support.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by chupasaurus on Monday May 18, 2020 @06:06PM (#23228941)
Nothing drastically changed since Torvalds had sended his gratitude[0].

[0] https://youtu.be/MShbP3OpASA?t=2997 (time coded)

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday May 18, 2020 @06:47PM (#23229280)
I concur.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by chupasaurus on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:38PM (#23229665)
Wayland support fiasco, changes in driver's EULA to deny the usage of consumer-grade GPUs in VMs are 2 things off the top of my head.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by floatboth on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:41PM (#23230087)
There was actually some period of time when the Tegra division (I think) contributed to Nouveau a bit (!) but that didn't really grow into anything good.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by magic_quotes on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:42PM (#23230097)
> changes in driver's EULA to deny the usage of consumer-grade GPUs in VMs

Which changes? Where? I'm looking at said EULA right now and I don't see anything related.

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by chupasaurus on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @01:47AM (#23231612)
My bad, it was a silently added "feature" in Windows driver[0].

[0] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM...

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by magic_quotes on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:33PM (#23230030)
Unfortunately, half-assed vendor support is still quite compelling compared to no vendor support.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:49PM (#23230146)
It depends on your use-case, i guess. If my intent would be using FreeBSD as my daily-driver "desktop/laptop-OS" i'd avoid NVIDIA like the plague, becaue without CUDA their unique selling point does not exist, but the hassle of some "switcheroo-black-magic" possibly persists. Which i wouldn't have with an intel-gpu, also less power draw. Even AMD is often supported in a better way, be it opensourced, or relying on their binary blob.
Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by magic_quotes on Monday May 18, 2020 @09:01PM (#23230228)
> Even AMD is often supported in a better way, be it opensourced, or relying on their binary blob.

AMD binary blob? You mean that amdgpu-pro thing? That doesn't exist on FreeBSD.

Re:John Carmack is reading and contributing to OpenBSD sourc... by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday May 18, 2020 @09:14PM (#23230295)
Maybe not the latest and greatest "Pro", but otherwise?

https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics/AMD-GPU-Matrix

edit: maybe should have added https://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/#index5h2 too