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Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by runawaybottle on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @07:13PM (#23172970)
You’re bragging about being manipulative?
Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by oneiftwo on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @07:46PM (#23173263)
I absolutely agree with this sentiment. It's why I had difficulty reading "how to win friends and influence people" despite how frequently and casually lauded it is.

It's literally an instruction manual for using indirect methods of communication and influence to get people to do what you want. It's practically adtech for the self.

Ignoring the dangers of having charismatic power over people, I don't know under what circumstances it is ethical to manipulate someone, and I certainly wouldn't brag openly about it.

Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by skybrian on Thursday May 14, 2020 @12:52AM (#23175459)
It seems like the same action can be taken differently depending on intent. For example, one of the things Dale Carnegie emphasized is the importance of remembering people's names.

If you try to remember people's names is that manipulative? If so, why do we apologize for forgetting people's names? If we write down the names of people we meet, is that manipulative or is it just being organized?

If you do it badly, yeah that's weird.

Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by bladegash on Thursday May 14, 2020 @11:47AM (#23180919)
Very good points! Intent can be tricky, since good intentions quite often go badly. Defining "badly" even becomes problematic as well (badly for who - me? them? the collective?). I think one of the problems with manipulation, is the intent is inherently selfish (to achieve your own goals/agenda), with the target's well being/free agency being a secondary consideration. However, it is definitely challenging to find the line between persuasion, cultural norms/good manners (e.g., remembering someone's name, making eye contact, etc.), and manipulation.
Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by gowld on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @08:19PM (#23173537)
I don't see why people are intuitively manipulative deserve it more than people who study. Manipulation is a tool. How it is used it was matter.
Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by runawaybottle on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @08:33PM (#23173670)
So let’s discuss how manipulation was used:

> Declare that there are too many admins and that there needs to be a stricter policy to define who can be an admin.

> Take it on yourself to define (or redefine) that policy and present it to the system owner in your organization. Make sure you fit the new definition and make sure that staple admins are also included.

> No one remembers why you’re admin, but you’re setting the rules now so no one can dispute it. Victory!

What are we even discussing here? This is such a indicator of bad character.

Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by mehrdadn on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @08:42PM (#23173754)
I think some of it was tongue-in-cheek...
Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by pdonis on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @09:01PM (#23173909)
It might be, but it might not. The author has left it ambiguous.
Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by mehrdadn on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @09:49PM (#23174277)
> No one remembers why you’re admin, but you’re setting the rules now so no one can dispute it. Victory!

I really don't think this is ambiguous. It's very clearly meant to be funny rather than serious.

Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by pdonis on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @10:59PM (#23174789)
> I really don't think this is ambiguous. It's very clearly meant to be funny rather than serious.

Taking individual sentences in isolation is one thing.

Taking them in the context of the entire post is another. In the context of the entire post, I see plenty of ambiguity in this sentence.

Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by SirSavary on Thursday May 14, 2020 @07:27PM (#23186933)
Although I'm sure the author had no malicious intent, I'm reminded of certain subcultures disguising not-so-great behavior behind comedy so they can claim it isn't serious when criticized.

Edit: and I've just now remembered what a great laugh I had reading some of the language in "The Anarchist Cookbook" even though all those non-traditional fire recipes were certainly meant to be used for some kind of malicious act :)

Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by runawaybottle on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @08:49PM (#23173815)
Ah ok, well now I feel like a dumbass.

But hey you never know, some sociopaths will totally write something like this.

Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by bgutierrez on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @07:26PM (#23173075)
No, he's explaining that acting responsible puts him in positions of responsibility.
Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by pdonis on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @08:59PM (#23173892)
> he's explaining that acting responsible puts him in positions of responsibility

It could be taken that way, but the problem is that the author deliberately puts it in terms that make that ambiguous.

A much less ambiguous way to put it would have been:

1. Help out an existing admin by fixing something they care about fixing but are too busy to fix themselves.

2. Repeat step 1. enough times that there is general recognition in the organization that you can fix problems and will do so responsibly.

3. Approach the powers that be and point to your track record established in steps 1. and 2. as evidence that (a) another admin is needed to help carry the load, and (b) you are the right person for that job.

4. Get appointed as an admin.

The author's process might be essentially the same as the above, but it might not; there are various signs in his writeup of the latter, that might be valid signs or might just be his whimsical way of speaking. And if his process isn't the same as the above, then he's doing more than just acting responsible and thereby earning positions of responsibility.

Where the real divergence comes is this:

"8. Make sure to keep helping out anyone who wants to fix problems with the system. If you become a roadblocker, you will allow someone else to do step #1 and you might lose your access when that person reaches step #6."

Notice that in my steps 1. through 4. above, no existing admins get punted. So there's no need for someone who reaches my step 4. to take steps to prevent others from starting at my step 1. and working their way through the process. And someone who was genuinely concerned for the well-being of the organization would be open to the possibility that, just as the admins who were there before him weren't able to take care of all the problems, there might come a time when the admins including him might not be able to either.

Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by runawaybottle on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @07:29PM (#23173107)
Really? Because I think he broke it down into steps:

Step 1: Become admin

Step 2: Say there are too many admins now, redefine the requirements for admins to fit you

Step 3: Stay admin, while others don’t qualify

Huh? This is cool?

Re:White hat social engineering: How to become an admin of a... by dfine on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @08:01PM (#23173386)
This is an instructive article for how to get a lot done to improve systems as a "utility knife" developer in a growing startup, but how to do it responsibly.