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Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by stcredzero on Saturday March 12, 2011 @02:00PM (#2317214)
What people need to realize, is that there is a reason why the free-ranging cowboy had to stop existing, all the cowboy-poetry about the sadness of barbed wire fences notwithstanding.

More order means more economic activity.

If you have any knowledge about security and cryptography, and you start planning out the security for a new kind of app, one keeps on running into difficulties, one after another. It just occurred to me the other day that these difficulties are just like the ones 3rd world businesspeople face. As far as security goes, we are living with a poverty of infrastructure. Basically, too much of the information infrastructure is broken, to the extent that we can't do diamond-hard key management.

Secure medical information through the browser? People are in fear of regulation sets like HIPPA, because browsers are one of the richest sources of security holes! Private information? People say ridiculous stuff like "privacy is dead" and young women just hope the pics their ex-boyfriends posted are lost in the throngs of other evilly posted pics on the internet. It's insanity. How is this any different than someone in the 3rd world trying to build a widget delivery business, but finds that the roads are rotten, he can't get parts for his trucks, and he has to bribe people to let his trucks past, bribe people to let his warehouses be unmolested, and to get the business license in the first place?

In terms of security, even the 1st world is like the 3rd world. The upshot: whoever attempts building the internet's first mature security infrastructure will have huge risks. Whoever succeeds will make billions of dollars. My startup is doing precisely this. If you understand what I am saying, you can email my username at gmail dot com.

Google gets it. This is what they're trying to do with Chrome. This is how it will start. People will try to build little pockets, little pieces of infrastructure. These are the walled gardens. Some will fail. Some will succeed and even interconnect. Eventually, workable networks will securely connect the entire world.

Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by mttwrnr on Saturday March 12, 2011 @03:53PM (#2317475)
I agree that we need to get to a more secure internet, but I'm not sure a walled garden is the way to accomplish this.

I feel like security holes are inherent in the nature of technology and its rapid development and evolution. The security threats that plagued the internet in the 90s are now obsolete. With new technology comes new threats. That's the way it will be and the only option we have is to stay vigilant and attempt to think of every edge case before black hats do.

To say that a walled garden is the solution is a dangerous statement. While this may provide a very safe platform such as iOS, it is also a stifled and languid platform due to the bottleneck of the approval process. We will be safe from security if we never make anything new. That's not a solution to the problem that's sacrificing future potential for economic activity.

Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by stcredzero on Saturday March 12, 2011 @04:39PM (#2317575)
I agree that we need to get to a more secure internet, but I'm not sure a walled garden is the way to accomplish this.

No, it's only the first step! Think about how infrastructure gets established. It doesn't appear everywhere at once. That's usually a logistical impossibility.

I feel like security holes are inherent in the nature of technology and its rapid development and evolution. The security threats that plagued the internet in the 90s are now obsolete. With new technology comes new threats. That's the way it will be and the only option we have is to stay vigilant and attempt to think of every edge case before black hats do.

Sounds like a ratrace to me. Sounds like you're giving up on the idea that things can be better. Sounds like a lot of work. Sounds like the general security situation sucks. Sounds to me like there's latent demand here.

Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by fierarul on Saturday March 12, 2011 @03:12PM (#2317376)
You wrote a long post but could you perhaps expand it even more? Perhaps in an article?

I don't see how "more order means more economic activity": if anything, I associate "more order" with more bureaucracy and higher barrier to entry for new economic agents.

Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by stcredzero on Saturday March 12, 2011 @03:25PM (#2317411)
You wrote a long post but could you perhaps expand it even more? Perhaps in an article?

Actually, I'm thinking of doing exactly that.

I don't see how "more order means more economic activity": if anything, I associate "more order" with more bureaucracy and higher barrier to entry for new economic agents.

It's contextual, actually. I presume you are commenting from an industrialized nation. For you, more order is going to mean more bureaucracy, more friction, and less economic activity.

For someone living somewhere, where the rule of law doesn't even apply, to the point where it's hard to maintain basic infrastructure, there isn't enough order yet. In that case, more order = more economic activity.

I'm saying, in the context of digital security, the Internet as a whole still suffers from a poverty of infrastructure that inhibits many kinds of transactions. There is tremendous risk and opportunity here for those daring enough to do something about it.

Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by bdr on Saturday March 12, 2011 @03:20PM (#2317395)
I think what they mean is closely related to the idea of trust as a kind of social capital. Economists have studied this. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(social_sciences)#Economi...

Essentially, "social trust benefits the economy and a low level of trust inhibits economic growth".

You're not going to open a store if you're pretty sure it's going to get robbed. Order doesn't have to mean bureaucracy.

Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by scott_s on Saturday March 12, 2011 @05:36PM (#2317662)
Infrastructure. If you can't depend on the roads, you can't offer a delivery service. If you can't depend on running water, you can't operate a restaurant. If you can't depend on electricity, you can't have a movie theater.
Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by anigbrowl on Saturday March 12, 2011 @06:06PM (#2317707)
I think you're reading 'more order' as 'more [bureaucratic] orders.' an unregulated environment is great for experimenting and starting things, but order is important for maintaining what has already been built and providing the long-term stability that makes business predictable and thus worth investing in. Otherwise, as your enterprise becomes profitable it begins to incur ever-higher security costs, quickly resulting in a situation of diminishing returns.

This is why you don't see very much inward investment in places like Russia, Somalia and so on. The barriers to entry are very low for anyone with capital and an idea, but the barriers to exit are very high. Consider the case of Mikhail Khodorkovsky, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Khodorkovsky

Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by MichaelApproved on Saturday March 12, 2011 @05:20PM (#2317629)
The more order you have, the more you can predict into the future and feel comfortable making longer term investments.
Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by cheez on Sunday March 13, 2011 @05:53AM (#2318838)
His heart is in the right place. I think it's more like "not afraid that I will get shot or robbed while walking to the store means more economic activity". "This contract will be honoured" means more economic activity. Just stuff like that.

Bureaucrats need to get real jobs.

Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by anigbrowl on Saturday March 12, 2011 @06:23PM (#2317742)
What people need to realize, is that there is a reason why the free-ranging cowboy had to stop existing, all the cowboy-poetry about the sadness of barbed wire fences notwithstanding. More order means more economic activity.

I think you are only partly correct: there was a natural barrier imposed upon free-ranging economic expansion right where the west coast of North America meets the Pacific Ocean.

Although I don't dispute any of the points you make, you left out the question of economic scarcity. In the case of the cowboys, if land were free then moving a herd to fresh pastures would be a simple matter of calculating time * # of animals lost per day of transit. but once you run of free land, then you have to start estimating the opportunity costs of your neighbors as an input to transaction costs, and it's cheaper to put contractual arrangements in place than to settle disputes.

Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by stcredzero on Sunday March 13, 2011 @10:46AM (#2319274)
I think you are only partly correct: there was a natural barrier imposed upon free-ranging economic expansion right where the west coast of North America meets the Pacific Ocean.

This doesn't affect my analogy so much.

...you have to start estimating the opportunity costs of your neighbors as an input to transaction costs, and it's cheaper to put contractual arrangements in place than to settle disputes.

There was emotional reaction against barbed wire. The barbed wire fences were there, otherwise the contractual arrangements wouldn't work very well. With the fences, it's a lot easier to know whose land you are on and whose cattle are grazing where.

Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by euroclydon on Saturday March 12, 2011 @07:48PM (#2317915)
So iOS apps are native. What about webapps? Is that the next shoe to drop? A secure zone in Chrome or Safari, where you have to host your app in their cloud, for security, and they get 30% of price plus hosting fees? Seriously, how will these "infrastructure" builders deal with web apps?
Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by scythe on Saturday March 12, 2011 @03:55PM (#2317483)
Would you call PGP a walled garden?
Re:The Walled Garden Has Won by stcredzero on Saturday March 12, 2011 @04:35PM (#2317564)
PGP is a good example of what happens when non designer types do the UI and UX.