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Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by UI_at_80x24 on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @01:36PM (#23156904)
I look forward to these reports with the same zeal and enthusiasm as I used to reserve for comic strips in Sunday newspapers.

This data is significant and appreciated. Thank-you so much, and please keep up the good work.

Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by sixothree on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @01:54PM (#23157237)
While I don't _quite_ share your enthusiasm. I sure do share your appreciation. Nobody else at their level appears to be sharing this data. This is not something they had any obligation to share with us.

It certainly is useful and interesting.

Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by DizzyDoo on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @02:26PM (#23157687)
Every time I read through their update articles I'm reminded that Backblaze is a service I could possibly buy! I only buy a hard drive once every few years, but I enjoy seeing the data. The time it takes to write up and share what they are no doubt tracking anyway is probably quite worthwhile, I'd guess this is an effective piece of marketing. I'd be quite interested to see how many new sign-ups they get each time they post these stats.
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by brianwski on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @07:34PM (#23161427)
Disclaimer: I work at Backblaze.

> I'd guess this is an effective piece of marketing.

Yes, it really has been good to us. :-)

It is data we would collect internally for our own decision making and tracking even if we didn't release it, and it is only a small amount of work for us (mainly for Andy the author of that blog post) to format it up every 3 months and write some observations down. Since it isn't what we "sell", it would have just gone to waste being hidden. And it results in our name getting "out there" and inevitably every quarter somebody asks "hey, what do these people do that requires 130,000 hard drives anyway?" and then we get a little bump in customers. Cost vs. benefit has been WELL worth it to us.

Along the way (unrelated to making money) it makes us happy that people get some use out of it. Like we find out somebody does their PhD thesis on the raw SMART numbers of the drives or something, we enjoy hearing about it.

Until my dying day I will never understand why Google Storage and Amazon S3 and Microsoft Azure don't release their drive failure statistics. I just don't get it. Those companies have SO MANY DRIVES and they employ people with PhDs in statistics, they MUST have the same info internally but at 100x the scale. I don't get why they don't release the numbers?! But hey, if they want to continue to give us this marketing gift of exclusivity, I'll take it. Maybe they like us and are just doing us a solid.

Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by RyJones on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @08:59PM (#23162168)
A long time ago, WANOPS put a couple racks of machines in the parking lot of the (former) Building 11 on Microsoft Campus.

We had a lower failure rate across the board, for all components. I think the only protection that was in place was some blue tarps and a chain link fence.

I can't find a public reference, sorry.

Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by garaetjjte on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @06:40PM (#23172673)
>they MUST have the same info internally but at 100x the scale. I don't get why they don't release the numbers

Could be that on that scale they're dealing more directly with manufacturers, and they fear sharing failure data would affect it negatively?

Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by fomine3 on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @09:29PM (#23162409)
Great work! I wish you have Asia region DC.
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by aogl on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @10:17PM (#23162712)
.. it is however, very good cheap marketing
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by ComodoHacker on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @02:59PM (#23158186)
Some argue this data has mainly historical value. By the time it's available vendors may have changed many aspects of respective models, from geometry to controller chip to motors, let alone firmware. You might end up bying a very different product under the same SKU, to which this data has no relation at all.
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by schmookeeg on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @03:53PM (#23158887)
At this point, Backblaze is a serious "influencer", and HDD companies would be smart to make sure they get the best possible drives, even if the rest of us get junk.

I mean "doing it well for an influencer and shafting everyone else" is far cheaper and easier than just making a solid and reliable product consistently. That's such old-fashioned thinking these days. :)

Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by ValentineC on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @04:09PM (#23159059)
> At this point, Backblaze is a serious "influencer", and HDD companies would be smart to make sure they get the best possible drives, even if the rest of us get junk.

I don't know if they're as budget-conscious as they used to be, but Backblaze used to "shuck" drives from externals because they're cheaper [1].

If this is still the case, then their stats should be similar to hobbyists who are doing this too.

[1] https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backblaze_drive_farming/

Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by giantrobot on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @04:34PM (#23159369)
I think part of their shucking issue was from the floods in Thailand in 2011 that put a huge constraint on OEM drives. There were plenty of external drives in the channel so BackBlaze ordered a ton and shucked them. While the shucked drives might not have had the warranties or even the specs of OEM drives they might have ordered the aggregate nature of their storage meant they were a good replacement.
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by brianwski on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @07:46PM (#23161548)
Disclaimer: I work at Backblaze and was there during the Thailand flooding.

> While the shucked drives might not have had the warranties

We haven't shucked drives in a while. The main advantage was when this artificial price difference that occurred in the Thailand drive crisis where a "raw drive" cost $400, but if it was put inside a $7 USB enclosure the same drive including the USB enclosure suddenly only cost $200. At the time, our business model literally wouldn't survive the cost increase, it was shuck drives or go out of business. :-) We assume the issue was that mostly "rich companies" bought "raw drives" and could afford the increase in price, but "poor consumers" bought drives in USB enclosures and couldn't afford the increase.

We still watch the prices though. You can think of it this way: if 3% of the drives fail but don't have a warranty because they were shucked, then we have to save more than 3% (plus the cost of the "shucking" process) to make it worth it. That rarely happens anymore. I think partly because as the volume of drives that we purchase has gone up we have the ability to get better "bulk discounts" than we had in the earliest days. Also, the process of "drive farming" where the retail stores would limit it to "2 per customer" or whatever would get much harder at our current scale.

Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by CamperBob2 on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @05:48PM (#23160345)
You might end up bying a very different product under the same SKU, to which this data has no relation at all.

Exactly, as we just saw with the Western Digital debacle.

The unfortunate reality is, only a fortuneteller can say what the best hard drive to buy right now is.

Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by derefr on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @06:59PM (#23161143)
I don't think there were any non-DMSMR WD Red disks that had the same SKU as the DMSMR Reds. It was just a particular consumer SKU that didn't mention whether it was DMSMR or not (and was.) But anyone ordering that SKU was going to get a DMSMR drive. They weren't sending enterprise customers ordering that SKU one drive and sending consumers ordering the same SKU something else. Enterprise customers had their own catalogue of enterprisey SKUs to order from, that had no overlap with the consumer-level SKUs.
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by atYevP on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @05:54PM (#23160427)
The best hard drive is the one with a backup :)
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by icelancer on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @02:43PM (#23157942)
I agree. I circulate it every quarter in my company's Slack channel to show the importance of publishing open data and reports, not just as a steward of technology, but because it is actually useful marketing.
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by hobojones on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @02:45PM (#23157983)
I concur - I used to work with a set of clusters totaling ~45k drives and it was always fun to compare failure rates (especially on a per model basis).
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by icefo on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @03:49PM (#23158827)
Did you end up with significally different values sometimes ?
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by hobojones on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @05:39PM (#23160235)
Our failure rates were consistently much higher compared to Backblaze, usually 25-30% higher. I never did any detailed analysis, but I'd chalk it up to a couple items. First, the stock of drives were not rotated out as frequently as I understand Backblaze does. The overall workload on the clusters was extremely heavy, but not consistent across all drives in the cluster, resulting in localized 'bursts' of activity. Finally the datacenter where the clusters lived used evaporate cooling and was located in a hot, dry environment surrounded by very fine soil. During the summer the machine room was Georgia level humid, and powering on any piece of hardware would usually yield a small cloud of dust.
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by brianwski on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @07:59PM (#23161657)
Disclaimer: I work at Backblaze.

> Our failure rates were consistently much higher compared to Backblaze

That's interesting.

> The overall workload on the clusters was extremely heavy

That is the most likely explanation. We see higher failure rates when we are writing to the drives, for example as a new vault fills with customer data. Backup (our oldest business) has a fairly easy work load, it is not as punishing as a database that is pummeling the drives.

In certain circumstances when we are down more than 1 drive in a 20 drive Reed Solomon group we stop putting new data on that drive group until the parity is restored explicitly because this lowers the chances of an additional drive failing in the group. That gives us more time to rebuild the parity with less stress in our lives. When that last parity drive fails and one more drive failure means customers lose data the fun drains right out of this job. Red alerts are thrown, pagers go off in the middle of the night, datacenter techs start driving towards the datacenter at 3am to replace drives. We prefer the world nice and calm and relaxed with a good night's sleep.

Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by bigiain on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @11:23PM (#23163143)
> We prefer the world nice and calm and relaxed with a good night's sleep.

/me goes and checks BackBlaze's careers page...

(I suspect driving time to any of their datacenters from Sydney puts me out of the running... At least their 3am emergencies would be a much more reasonable 8pm emergency from here.)

Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by tinus_hn on Wednesday May 13, 2020 @05:17AM (#23165027)
How fast can you restore such an enormous dataset anyway? Drives have become so big a 20 drive group could hold almost 1/4 petabyte, it must take a long time to read data, recalculate parity and write.
Re:Backblaze Hard Drive Stats Q1 2020 by brandmeyer on Tuesday May 12, 2020 @06:58PM (#23161135)
Turns out that some outdoor environmental dust is ferromagnetic.

A particular vertical-axis wind turbine project was destroyed by buildup of magnetic dust on the generator magnets.

I'm not saying that's what was killing your drives directly. Normally HDDs are fully sealed. But the amount of dust you mention is awfully suspicious. It might change your investigative perspective a bit when you consider that some small percentage of all that dust is ferromagnetic.