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Re:Six Signs of Scientism (2009) [pdf] by throw0101a on Sunday May 10, 2020 @01:37PM (#23134402)
Edward Feser has written a bunch on this topic over the years:

> Despite its adherents’ pose of rationality, scientism has a serious problem: it is either self-refuting or trivial. Take the first horn of this dilemma. The claim that scientism is true is not itself a scientific claim, not something that can be established using scientific methods. Indeed, that science is even a rational form of inquiry (let alone the only rational form of inquiry) is not something that can be established scientifically. For scientific inquiry itself rests on a number of philosophical assumptions: that there is an objective world external to the minds of scientists; that this world is governed by causal regularities; that the human intellect can uncover and accurately describe these regularities; and so forth. Since science presupposes these things, it cannot attempt to justify them without arguing in a circle.

* https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2010/03/1174/

* http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/03/scientism-roundup.ht...

* http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2018/07/fallacies-physicists...

See also naturalism:

> According to Robert Priddy, all scientific study inescapably builds on at least some essential assumptions that are untested by scientific processes;[15] that is, that scientists must start with some assumptions as to the ultimate analysis of the facts with which it deals. These assumptions would then be justified partly by their adherence to the types of occurrence of which we are directly conscious, and partly by their success in representing the observed facts with a certain generality, devoid of ad hoc suppositions."[16]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)

Re:Six Signs of Scientism (2009) [pdf] by bloaf on Sunday May 10, 2020 @02:38PM (#23134896)
Feser is actually wrong on a handful of points.

Science-qua-epistemic-method does not require "that this world is governed by causal regularities." In such a case, the method would still work, it would just figure out that all claims of causal regularity were false. Comprehensibility likewise shows his theistic bias: whether or not we can understand the rules of the universe are irrelevant to whether or not we can use science to reject our incorrect/limited interpretations.

What science does require is that the scientist not be actively deceived, (e.g. if our senses were telling us there is a world external to our mind but there wasn't, that would be a form of deception that would defeat science.)

Re:Six Signs of Scientism (2009) [pdf] by wcarey on Sunday May 10, 2020 @02:43PM (#23134937)
How would you distinguish using science-qua-epistemic-method between a world where all claims of causal regularity were false and a world in which scientist were actively deceived?
Re:Six Signs of Scientism (2009) [pdf] by bloaf on Sunday May 10, 2020 @02:48PM (#23134982)
The problem with the "actively deceived" scenario is that it defeats science, so demanding that we use science to determine whether or not scientists are actively deceived would mean that we have not quite understood the point.
Re:Six Signs of Scientism (2009) [pdf] by wcarey on Sunday May 10, 2020 @06:05PM (#23136716)
Right - do you draw the distinction between the cases you propose philosophically then? I'm on board with an a priori commitment to the idea that we are not actively deceived in our observations of nature, but I think without the same a priori commitment to the idea of causal regularity in nature we'd have the same problem.

I suppose I don't see how "actively deceived" defeats science, but "universe not governed by causal regularities" doesn't? In both cases, we seem to be able to identify patterns and regularities in nature that are illusory.

Re:Six Signs of Scientism (2009) [pdf] by bloaf on Sunday May 10, 2020 @08:42PM (#23137732)
Because as I said, we would do science and end up rejecting all claims requiring causal regularities. That we might observe something that seems like a causal regularity is irrelevant, because it wouldn't be repeatable, so we'd end up rejecting it. If you want to invent some case where "well, what if scientists measuring something makes it seem regular?" then you've created a causal regularity where we're not supposed to have any (i.e. scientists measuring causing regular behavior)

I'm also going to take issue with Feser using the concept of causation in the first place. While physicists certainly still use the language of cause and effect, I don't think they need the concept metaphysically in the way theists do.

Its like how biologists might say something like "this species of butterfly evolved a longer proboscis in order to drink from this kind of flower" but metaphysically they would understand that the butterfly species never actually had the intent to make their noses longer (neither did evolution, nor mother nature.) So biologists might use teleological terms as a useful shorthand, while understanding that there is no actual teleology metaphysically speaking.

I think physics is in the same place with respect to causality. They may speak that way, but at the end of the day they just need the data to fit their models. So we could have acausal regularities, and science would work completely fine.