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Re:James Damore and three others end Google suit by wpietri on Saturday May 09, 2020 @11:24AM (#23125450)
That has everything to do with politics.

Go take a look at the various declarations of secession when the slaveholding US states tried to quit and form the Confederacy. A number of them explicitly mention that a system of racial slavery is fine because black people were naturally inferior, which is how in the 1850s one would have said "biological differences". That was very obviously politics.

Further, there's an enormous history of explaining why people on the short end of a power differential truly deserve it because of their inferiority. You could look at all the talk around the time a century ago when men were deciding whether women should be allowed to vote. Women's "biological differences" were a huge reason they supposedly couldn't handle political power.

For those interested in the history, Kendi's "Stamped from the Beginning" is an excellent history of how ideas about "biological differences" have, since the ancient Greeks at least, been used politically. The particular "biological differences" change, of course. E.g., the Slavs, from whom we get the word slave, were considered naturally inferior by the Greeks because they came from a colder place. When enslaving Africans became an industry for people from the north, suddenly the problem was Africa's hotter climate. The "science" keeps changing, but what doesn't is the result: "inferior" people deserve less social or economic power.

Re:James Damore and three others end Google suit by JSavageOne on Saturday May 09, 2020 @12:30PM (#23126109)
So what are you trying to say, we shouldn't be allowed to talk about gender differences?

There's an enormous difference between the references you made because they are all trying to rationalize treating a race/gender as inferior. On top of that, there is no real scientific evidence backing anything up and it all basically amounts to inferring causation from correlation (ie. they are inferior because they are poor).

James' memo does not in any form attempt to rationalize why women should not become engineers (the analogue to your comparisons), rather it tries to explain why women do not pursue careers in tech at the frequency with which men do.

Women are not "discriminated against" when it comes to signing up for computer science classes in high school or choosing to major in computer science in university, yet significantly less of them sign up for these classes then men. There is no discrimination going on here since any women can sign up for any class of their choosing in high school. Clearly something is causing this gender imbalance, what might that be? That is what the memo tries to investigate. There is nothing "sexist" about asking or attempting to answer this real life phenomenon.

In terms of gender differences, the author lists points such as "women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things" , "women on average are more cooperative", and "Women on average look for more work-life balance while men have a higher drive for status on average", hardly statements that anyone can consider as insinuating female inferiority.

I'm guessing that the most contentious part of the memo is where the author states that women tend to have higher degrees of neuroticism, but he did cite Wikipedia which states "Research in large samples has shown that levels of neuroticism are higher in women than men." and references a research paper [1]. I'm no biology/psychology/gender expert and have no opinion on the authority of the source, but the legitimacy of the paper is certainly not a question of "politics", but of science.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01497...

Re:James Damore and three others end Google suit by danbolt on Saturday May 09, 2020 @03:10PM (#23127505)
> Women are not "discriminated against" when it comes to signing up for computer science classes in high school or choosing to major in computer science in university, yet significantly less of them sign up for these classes then men. There is no discrimination going on here since any women can sign up for any class of their choosing in high school. Clearly something is causing this gender imbalance, what might that be?

Gee, that must be some sort of biological factor! Certainly not related to social aspects outside of signing up for a high school computer science class.

Re:James Damore and three others end Google suit by wpietri on Saturday May 09, 2020 @01:49PM (#23126814)
That is not in fact what I'm trying to say. Sorry you wasted so much time replying to a point I wasn't making.
Re:James Damore and three others end Google suit by JSavageOne on Saturday May 09, 2020 @01:58PM (#23126896)
Practically every comment I've made in this thread I'd consider a waste of time since no one calling the memo "sexist" has made any serious argument, thus proving my point.

I always thought Reddit was a better platform for people more interested in a echo chamber safe space where they can post low-effort 1-2 sentence comments and be patted on the back with other similar comments all saying the same thing.

Re:James Damore and three others end Google suit by wpietri on Saturday May 09, 2020 @02:06PM (#23126983)
One, I didn't say that, so I'm not sure why you think it's my job to argue the point. Two, you are not coming across as a guy who's seriously looking to understand why people might reasonably see something as sexist. You can't really be surprised that nobody's willing to take the time to educate somebody who doesn't want to learn.
Re:James Damore and three others end Google suit by yahyaheee on Saturday May 09, 2020 @12:57PM (#23126317)
Exactly, and he went on to offer more ways by which they could get women into tech based on that study. But I guess that makes you a misogynist
Re:James Damore and three others end Google suit by TheAdamAndChe on Saturday May 09, 2020 @12:32PM (#23126116)
The trouble is that there are well known physical[1] and psychological[2] differences between the sexes. The same isn't true between races. It may still be political, but the arguments against it shouldn't be the same.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans?wpro...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology?...

Re:James Damore and three others end Google suit by wpietri on Saturday May 09, 2020 @01:12PM (#23126470)
You're missing the point. America has seen 5 centuries of bogus arguments of the form, "the unequal status quo is in fact fine because biology". As I said right in the comment you're replying to, this happened with gender just as much as with race.

Given that these arguments have been consistently proven wrong but always come back in a different form, the 21st-century versions should be carefully scrutinized to see if they're the same politically motivated reasoning. And we should never pretend that they're not political, however much they're cloaked in objectivity. Indeed, people who value science should especially object to political argument wrapping itself in a lab coat.

Re:James Damore and three others end Google suit by ausbah on Saturday May 09, 2020 @01:13PM (#23126471)
attributing underrepresentation of woman in STEM probably needs a significantly higher level of evidence than just "biological differences"
Re:James Damore and three others end Google suit by username90 on Saturday May 09, 2020 @12:52PM (#23126269)
There are more progressive leftists in power in tech than ever, yet female representation hasn't gone up. How much evidence do you need before you think they might be wrong? I'm from Sweden which initiated these kinds of programs 30 years ago, and it didn't do anything at all except alienate men who were excluded from the programs. There aren't more women now than back then in tech and engineering.

The only things that really worked was to create softer versions of degrees. Like make computer science program with a focus on UX or design, then you get a lot of women applying. You still wont get more women into the more technical roles, but at least you get more women's perspective into the industry. Also you know how so many say that communication skills is the most important part of their job as a software engineer? Why not just make a degree related to that directly? Women would flock to such programs.