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Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by the_af on Friday May 08, 2020 @04:08PM (#23118890)
I think the author is overreaching, or rather, this is how natural language works for all fields of discourse (um, "fields", am I using a geography metaphor?)

The author mentions a talk by Maggie Appleton (which I've not heard, so maybe she's being misrepresented [1]) where she asks "Aren’t metaphors just a frivolous distraction?". But it becomes impossible to talk about anything, software included, without using them. To the point where I question whether it's useful at all to think of them as metaphors.

How else talk about what a string or a file contains without using the word "contains"? Is "she had no more ideas" clearer than "she ran out of ideas"? (And wouldn't the former be a metaphor of possession, as if one could "have" ideas? Maybe it's better to say "she was idea-less"?)

How would you say "he reused this variable name" without a metaphor of resources? "He chose a variable name that was also the name of another variable"?

----

[1] edit: I've now watched Maggie's talk, and her point is that metaphors are useful and indeed inescapable.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by bobbiechen on Friday May 08, 2020 @04:44PM (#23119250)
This reminds me of the book Metaphors We Live By, by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson (https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo363799...). Edit: of course it's mentioned in both the article and the talk, no wonder it's so relevant :)

It discusses how metaphors in language fundamentally shape how we think and behave, even when we aren't aware of them. For example, in the second chapter they write about the concept "Time is money":

== (this is a quote, including the italics for emphasis)

TIME IS MONEY

You're wasting my time.

This gadget will save you hours.

I don't have the time to give you.

How do you spend your time these days?

That flat tire cost me an hour.

[...more examples omitted here for brevity]

Time in our culture is a valuable commodity. It is a limited resource that we use to accomplish our goals. Because of the way that the concept of work has developed in modern Western culture, where work is typically associated with the time it takes and time is precisely quantified, it has become customary to pay people by the hour, week, or year. In our culture TIME IS MONEY in many ways: telephone message units, hourly wages, hotel room rates, yearly budgets, interest on loans, and paying your debt to society by "serving time." These practices are relatively new in the history of the human race, and by no means do they exist in all cultures.

== (end quote)

Reading that passage, especially the last line, by no means do they exist in all cultures, really hit me. I never really realized how common these time=money metaphors really are, and I literally can't imagine a world where time is not money myself - the metaphor is that internalized.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by the_af on Friday May 08, 2020 @04:50PM (#23119299)
Very interesting! Both Julia (the article's author) and Maggie (the person she quotes) mention this book, Metaphors We Live By.

I've now heard Maggie's talk and she seems reasonable. It's only the article's author that seems to be stretching it too far...

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by kortex on Friday May 08, 2020 @11:02PM (#23121837)
There as basically two types of ontological relations: membership (X is a Y) and attribute (W has a Z).

Metaphors are an interesting abstration because they are like a functor from one ontology to another.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by cjhveal on Friday May 08, 2020 @04:51PM (#23119311)
I don't think the point is avoiding these metaphors, but instead about being aware of them. The next slide in that talk is "You're thinking of figurative metaphors", and goes on to distinguish cognitive metaphors which are basic tools of thought from the kinds of metaphor that are analyzed in literature for their symbolism or meaning. The speaker encourages the listener to make these cognitive metaphors because they are powerful conduits for transferring understanding.

I believe the goal of this blog post was a fun exploration to try to explicitly consider the ways we use these cognitive metaphors in our technical language, so as to be more aware of them and to able to use them more effectively in communication.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by the_af on Friday May 08, 2020 @05:26PM (#23119664)
I agree Maggie's talk wasn't arguing against metaphors. I had to watch it to find out ;)

I also agree with you about the point of the blog post, it just wasn't very clear when I first posted. I see Julia has since re-written parts of it, for example removing Maggie's "frivolous" quote, which was a bit misleading for those of us who hadn't listened to her talk.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by cjhveal on Friday May 08, 2020 @06:31PM (#23120270)
I must have commented in those moments between Julia editing the post and you editing your comment. Thanks for clarifying!
Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by theelous3 on Friday May 08, 2020 @05:22PM (#23119626)
> Why would I pollute my [concepts] with these fuzzy misleading stories that are completely unrelated?”

> And I definitely wonder this sometimes! I really like explaining things in straightforward ways.

Pollute, misleading, unrelated are not words I associate with merely "being aware". An overly charitable reading I think.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by theelous3 on Friday May 08, 2020 @08:31PM (#23121049)
Replying to myself as edit time expired, to clarify:

The author edited the article in the mean time. It was initially fairly negative towards metaphors, and now appears more neutral.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by dmreedy on Friday May 08, 2020 @04:50PM (#23119305)
Absolutely it's how language works for all fields!

That's why it's important to examine these kinds of things as metaphors; it at once conveys that there's probably some 'meta-meaning' going on modeling discussion around one idea using the terminology and implied mechanism of another, and at the same time that these models may not be perfectly encapsulating, so reminding us to be careful assuming too much about the extent to which the metaphor maps.

>>> How else talk about

exactly! By being aware that they're metaphors, we can genuinely ask these questions, and wonder if there might be different, or even better, models. Metaphors are especially interesting where they break down, and deceive.

See also bobbiechen's comment about Lakoff's work.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by lucasmullens on Friday May 08, 2020 @04:20PM (#23118985)
Definitely seems overreaching.

Broadening a definition and a metaphor are not the same thing. Basically every "metaphor" mentioned is just a word that has more than one definition. Sure, the origin of the new definition was likely at first someone making a metaphor, but now they're just words.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by theelous3 on Friday May 08, 2020 @04:26PM (#23119038)
It reads like a vulcan who just came across human language and is baffled at how illogical is, while missing the meaning behind the phrasing entirely.

It hurt its self in it's confusion dot jpg etc

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by jrochkind1 on Friday May 08, 2020 @06:14PM (#23120142)
Right, this is how natural language (at least English certainly can't speak for others) works for all fields of discourse.

So it can be interesting to see which metaphors we use. Do they say something about how we think about things? Do the metaphors we use effect what ideas we come up with? Would switching the metaphors up give us different ideas? Probably. Are the metaphors the same for all fields of discourse? Probably not, but only one way to find out. What does that tell us?

I think it's interesting. I think lots of metaphors become so 'trite' that we forget they are metaphors at all, but they are probably still having influence on how we conceptualize things.

(The 'processes [or other subsystems] as people' metaphor is one I (and I'm sure others) use intentionally and find useful; I think this is one of the more intentional ones; it's not meant to be bad to use metaphors; but the map still isn't the territory).

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by l0b0 on Friday May 08, 2020 @04:55PM (#23119346)
I don't think OP argued that this was a bad thing. It's just a quick exploration of the use of metaphors, if anything showing just how prevalent and effective they are.

I've barely started reading Douglas Hofstadter, but isn't all language a heap of metaphors? I mean, in a man page, how could you talk about a program without using metaphors? The closest thing you could get is probably code or pseudo-code, and even that is just the top of a massive pile of metaphors all the way down to moving electrons around.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by the_af on Friday May 08, 2020 @05:23PM (#23119629)
> I don't think OP argued that this was a bad thing

Maybe, thought it wasn't clear from her initial article. I see she's now re-worded it (she removed Maggie's quote about frivolity), which indeed makes it clearer it's not a criticism, just an exploration.

Indeed, language is a heap of metaphors and idioms. It's interesting to consider which ones occur in different languages and which ones don't (in Spanish you are not "moved" by an emotion, for example).

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by dllthomas on Friday May 08, 2020 @04:22PM (#23119002)
"She did not produce further ideas, perhaps being unable."
Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by the_af on Friday May 08, 2020 @04:38PM (#23119180)
The author mentions "generate" as a metaphor for "ideas as products". I suppose "produce" would fall in the same category.

(Absurd, I know!)

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by dllthomas on Friday May 08, 2020 @05:00PM (#23119402)
Ah. "think of"? Or maybe "voice" if we are being behaviorists.
Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by the_af on Friday May 08, 2020 @05:31PM (#23119723)
"She did not think of [further] ideas [, perhaps being unable to]"

Hmmm. Isn't "further" somewhat related to space or distance? And in any case, it doesn't convey the same meaning as "she ran out of ideas", which is quite definitive -- we're not unsure, we know there are no more ideas left in her mind.

I'm sure we all agree (even Julia and Maggie, it would seem) it's not practical or clearer to talk like this.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by dllthomas on Friday May 08, 2020 @08:19PM (#23120971)
Good point. Maybe "additional"?

> I'm sure we all agree (even Julia and Maggie, it would seem) it's not practical or clearer to talk like this.

Yeah, I'm just having fun trying to play by rules I haven't fully grokked.

Re:Metaphors in Man Pages by afrahim2001 on Friday May 08, 2020 @08:25PM (#23121006)
yes great agree on all of you