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Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by AnthonyMouse on Sunday May 03, 2020 @09:43PM (#23063714)
> I've never seen a bad or immoral or harmful idea die out when more people learn about it and scrutinize it.

Leaded gasoline, phlogiston, cold fusion, phrenology, scientific racism, basically the entire history of the progress of science.

But let's also not forget that you're asking for a list of discredited ideas, so you wouldn't have heard of them, by definition, if things are working as they should, because they're wrong and the former proponents have long since abandoned trying to disseminate them to you.

> Deplatforming these people and, importantly, showing social pressure that these are bad ideas and shouldn't even be entertained as valid debate, has shown to work repeatedly.

If all you're doing is defining "work" as "the censorship target was censored" then you're not claiming anything. When you kick these people off of major platforms, they don't cease to exist, they break off like an extremist splinter group and go to a place with no moderating influences to fester. You don't see them anymore, but they're still there, and then suddenly somehow Donald Trump is the President of the United States and people can't believe it and don't understand how it happened.

> In fact, social pressure is one of the most effective tools against hate and ignorance like this.

Censorship isn't social pressure, it's force. Social pressure is telling wrong people why they're wrong, every time.

People who are wrong need to be made right, not made frustrated and angry and yet not only still wrong but now even more convinced that their wrong ideas are right because they now have real evidence that they're not getting a fair public debate.

Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by knzhou on Sunday May 03, 2020 @09:46PM (#23063731)
> Leaded gasoline, phlogiston, cold fusion, phrenology, scientific racism, basically the entire history of the progress of science.

The progress of science wasn't driven by nutjobs delivering spittle-flecked rants on Youtube. Almost all of it was driven by careful peer review of ideas -- which is the exact opposite of unrestricted speech.

Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by ultrarunner on Sunday May 03, 2020 @09:58PM (#23063812)
Those ideas were originated by careful peer review of ideas— they were put into practice by unrestricted discussion proliferating throughout the populous.
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by wnoise on Monday May 04, 2020 @04:16AM (#23065662)
Peer review being so widespread and regarded as necessary is remarkably recent, and it's not at all clear that it's necessary or terribly effective for science.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/information-culture/the... has some indications that peer reviewers generally don't do a great job.

Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by zozbot234 on Sunday May 03, 2020 @09:53PM (#23063779)
"E pur si muove...!"
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by knzhou on Sunday May 03, 2020 @09:58PM (#23063814)
Galileo didn't deliver spittle-flecked rants either. He carefully gathered evidence and wrote it up, and his ideas gained acceptance by peer review.
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by AnthonyMouse on Sunday May 03, 2020 @10:07PM (#23063855)
Let's have a word about gay rights then. Once upon a time a pride parade full of rainbow hair dye and BDSM leather and face paint and drag queens and hairy-chested shirtless men would have been right next to your "spittle-flecked rants" in the proper gentleman's book of ways not to get your message out, but I wouldn't want to be the one to say that they should have been censored over it.

Not everybody is a traditional upperclass gentleman and not everybody who isn't is wrong.

Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by knzhou on Sunday May 03, 2020 @10:21PM (#23063934)
But that's not actually how it worked out. Gay marriage didn't go from an unpopular stance to a popular one throughout the 2000s by displays like this. If anything, they were used as ammunition by people strongly against gay marriage in order to slow the change in public opinion.
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by thebean11 on Sunday May 03, 2020 @11:18PM (#23064212)
Regardless of whether they helped public perception, should they have been censored until public opinion caught up?
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by AnthonyMouse on Sunday May 03, 2020 @10:22PM (#23063939)
https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/07/08/gay-rites-are-civil-ri...

First you show the world you exist and convince your friends it's worth trying to change things, then you convince the moderates, then you win the fight, then you wait for your bitter enemies to die because they'll never be convinced but at least their kids are open to new ideas.

Pissing off your bitter enemies can be hard to avoid and still get the job done.

Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by knzhou on Sunday May 03, 2020 @10:28PM (#23063986)
But this article is making my exact point. By the time gay marriage was actually gaining acceptance, the largest pride parades had become as tame as 4th of July celebrations, with SF pride marching with the police, the mayor, and Google employees. They're completely different from their predecessors, like the Stonewall riots.
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by AnthonyMouse on Sunday May 03, 2020 @10:34PM (#23064008)
Because it's a different stage of the fight. You don't start off having a parade with the mayor in it because the mayor won't give you the time of day until your movement is big enough to be taken seriously, which starts with getting noticed and getting out the base. Being bland and studious doesn't do that.

And the parades are still full of weirdos, but they won, so now it's okay.

Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by zozbot234 on Sunday May 03, 2020 @10:41PM (#23064035)
The point stands that even these seemingly "queer", radically expressed ideas clearly became a lot tamer, less insolently-stated and more agreeable over time, despite the lack of anything approaching real censorship. That's precisely what you want if you care about not harming society at large, especially in the longer run.
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by james-mcelwain on Sunday May 03, 2020 @11:56PM (#23064412)
> That's precisely what you want if you care about not harming society at large, especially in the longer run.

Please, explain: how do queer ideas harm society, in the longer run?

Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by zozbot234 on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:58AM (#23066924)
My whole point is that censorship is what harms society, not ideas themselves.
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by vkou on Sunday May 03, 2020 @11:33PM (#23064299)
Actually, Galileo did largely deliver self-aggrandizing spittle-flecked rants, full of personal attacks against other astronomers, which were complete rubbish. His arguments for why the Earth revolved around the Sun were complete nonsense, and were more theological, than scientific in nature.

His contemporaries were not particularly impressed, but he probably wouldn't have been censored, if he also didn't try his damned hardest to personally piss off everyone in his social circle.

His 'efforts' probably set the adoption of heliocentrism back by decades.

Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by zozbot234 on Sunday May 03, 2020 @11:53PM (#23064399)
And Isaac Newton did a lot of work in alchemy, occult studies and predictions of the apocalypse founded in the period equivalent to the "Bible code". I don't know why people assume that the foremost scientists in recorded history did not benefit from an overall intellectually-open social climate and worldview. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by knzhou on Sunday May 03, 2020 @11:37PM (#23064322)
Interesting, do you have further reading on this to recommend?
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by vkou on Monday May 04, 2020 @03:23AM (#23065393)
If you have a few hours to kill, page through this:

https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-great-ptolemaic-sma...

Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by lonelappde on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:04AM (#23064441)
Galileo in particular was prosecuted by the Catholic church for making spittle flecked rants against the Pope. Much like a modern YouTuber, he then pretended he was persecuted for his science.
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by runako on Sunday May 03, 2020 @11:14PM (#23064200)
When did scientific racism die out? Mainstream US publications are still publishing op-eds that assume scientific racism is a legitimate topic. This has been going on since the country was founded. I'm not sure how effective a disinfectant sunlight is if it takes centuries to work.
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by jshevek on Monday May 04, 2020 @04:05AM (#23065588)
The body of opinions designated as scientific racism has changed over time. Giving the parent the benefit of the doubt, I took their statement to be referencing traditional scientific racism, such as that which rested on craniometry and other bizarre pseudoscience.
Re:YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke by AnthonyMouse on Sunday May 03, 2020 @11:34PM (#23064304)
> When did scientific racism die out? Mainstream US publications are still publishing op-eds that assume scientific racism is a legitimate topic.

I encourage you to review some of the early to mid 20th-century publications on the topic. "Science" backing segregation. Americans pontificating about whether Hitler was right or that blacks should be sterilized, and then actually doing it. Doctors. In hospitals. "Three generations of imbeciles are enough" from the US Supreme Court.

If you think we're in the same state now as we were then, you don't know where we were then.

> I'm not sure how effective a disinfectant sunlight is if it takes centuries to work.

You would prefer the alternative where anything contradicting the then-prevailing doctrine of racial supremacy and eugenics was censored? How long does the truth take to get out in that case? And what happens in the meantime?