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Re:Operating Systems Without Systemd by sliken on Friday May 01, 2020 @10:13PM (#23048515)
Mostly that it WAY more complicated than it needs to be, and it often replaces well written and tested tools with VERY poor implementations.

Things like NTP, syslog, DHCPd, cron, iptables, mount, automount, handling /tmp, /dev, DNS, su/sudo, etc.

Letting the init system talk to the network before userspace has the ability to setup firewalls gives me the heebie jeebies.

Often the implementations of systemd don't handle failures well, leave off critical features like encryption, DNSSEC, etc. They are often hard to debug, and generally worse than the features they replace.

Not that Linux didn't need a nice init system, but that systemd is trying to take over everything. The lastest volley on that front is taking over management of /home with homed, but in a way that's incompatible with ssh.

Do you really want to depend on systemd's homed for managing /home? I'd rather not.

Re:Operating Systems Without Systemd by jiggawatts on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:48AM (#23049881)
Interesting that you list DNS, because in my experience one of the worst-implemented network protocols in pre-systemd Linux is the DNS client. The systemd implementation isn't perfect either, but it's a lot better.

The design of classic Linux DNS simply assumes that 100% of Linux systems are university lab machines, and that there is a single DNS server that is 100% reliable.

I've heard people making various arguments to support the classic Linux DNS client's failings as if they were features. These have included: that I should "fix" my telco's DNS servers (wtf!?), set up a HA load-balancing solution on premises (in my home!?), use anycast routing (really!?), reinvent the DNS protocol to not require multiple servers (I'll get right on that), or change third-party software to not require DNS (wat?).

When pressed, all of these people eventually boiled their arguments down to: Fine, yes, it's broken, but it's the way it is, that's what the man page says, that's what was established in the 1980s, and systemd is different so we don't like it!

It's mind boggling how conservative Linux people are...

Re:Operating Systems Without Systemd by hedora on Saturday May 02, 2020 @12:38PM (#23052894)
I had zero problems with Linux’s dns client until about 3 years ago. The systemd one and whatever it replaced took 5 seconds to resolve anything remotely last time I checked. (It did cache after that, fwiw).

This was on some Ubuntu LTS. 18.04, maybe? I paved the machine, installed a distro that doesn’t chase the new shiny every six months, and moved on.

Re:Operating Systems Without Systemd by microcolonel on Friday May 01, 2020 @10:47PM (#23048691)
Most of these things are simply untrue. The idea that homed is "incompatible with SSH" is preposterous.

> Letting the init system talk to the network before userspace has the ability to setup firewalls gives me the heebie jeebies.

Are these just random claims? The init system is userspace, and you can have any service wait for anything to access the network, including disabling the whole network target and triggering it manually.

Re:Operating Systems Without Systemd by hedora on Saturday May 02, 2020 @12:43PM (#23052945)
Here’s a remote exploit for the systemd DNS client: https://groups.google.com/d/topic/linux.debian.user/2KyNDWMj...

Here’s one for systemd DHCP: https://blog.erratasec.com/2018/10/systemd-is-bad-parsing-an...

Firewalls wouldn’t help with either of these, in fairness.

Re:Operating Systems Without Systemd by TheGoddessInari on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @03:26AM (#23077409)
Okay, how do you get the ssh folder contents to validate the remote user, if validating the user is required to decrypt?

You can't. And the systemd answer is that you simply throw away ssh.

Re:Operating Systems Without Systemd by wtallis on Saturday May 02, 2020 @12:03AM (#23049066)
> The idea that homed is "incompatible with SSH" is preposterous.

And yet, any honest assessment of the pros and cons of the homed proposal has to discuss the impact on SSH users in the cons section.

Re:Operating Systems Without Systemd by yrro on Saturday May 02, 2020 @04:28AM (#23050313)
> Letting the init system talk to the network

What?