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Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by highfrequency on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @07:36PM (#22951346)
Is there reason to think that people in the past were more selfless and less economically motivated?

I'd wager that throughout history, most great ideas and optimizations came from people who were either seeking profit or other kinds of status (eg recognition from peers).

Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by paganel on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:24AM (#22953346)
> Is there reason to think that people in the past were more selfless and less economically motivated?

Not sure if more selfless but the common ownership of agricultural/pastoral land was a thing in the rural parts of my country (Romania) until relatively recently.

The community-owned rural pastures (called "islaz") are the last to go right at this moment, it's like seeing the English enclosures play out with 200 years difference right in front of one's eyes (the "islaz" from my parents' village has been sold out to a private entity only 4 or 5 years ago). We also used to have common ownership and common use of the agricultural land in the Middle Ages, with some remnants of that system still extant in some mountainous communities until the late 1700s - early 1800s. They were called "obști" [1]

> The obște (pl. obști) was an autonomous agricultural community of the Romanians/Vlachs during the Middle Ages. Mixing private and common ownership, the communities generally employed an open field system. The obști were usually based on one or more extended families. This system of organization was similar throughout the Vlach-inhabited areas and it generally receded as overlords assumed more power over the rural communities and as the peasants lost their freedom by becoming serfs.

Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by dasil003 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:31PM (#22951965)
Probably hard to quantify economic motivation over long periods of time with very different cultural environments. Economic motivation seems a strange label for what would have been basic survival for early agricultural societies. I think what feels strange now is that we've had these massive increases in productivity over 150 years, but it hasn't translated to more leisure or less stress.

I also think there's a difference between an inventor coming up with an idea in hopes of selling it, versus the modern VC-funded apparatus of blitzing social media, adtech, and blackhat SEO to generate. In the past there were gate-keepers to distribution which have in many cases been disintermediated, and for a while there was a golden age where small independent producers could get internet distribution because the old giants (Apple, Microsoft) were too big and slow to capture it. But once Google and Facebook came of age, and VCs figured out the playbook, independents are once again at a disadvantage.

Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by jlawson on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:53PM (#22952110)
The last 150 years have absolutely seen huge increases in leisure time. Notice that in the Bible, there is only one day of Sabbath, the rest of the week is work. A 6.5 day work week was standard for millennia. This idea of a relaxed bucolic existence like a Monet painting was always a myth.

"Less stress" isn't defined enough to discuss, but I for one will say I don't stress about finding food over winter. My ancestors did at that time though.

Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by pojzon on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:23AM (#22953341)
Thats not exactly true, actually our ancestors rested a lot more than we do now.
Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by aspaceman on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:49AM (#22952899)
You say 150 years, and then reference the bible? That happened more than 150 years ago.
Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by pojzon on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:30AM (#22953374)
Thats not exactly true, actually our ancestors rested a lot more than we do now.

The same myth is that serfdom is/was worse than 9-7 office work.. when in fact you could work 1 day for someone else and 6 days for yourself. Now you work 5 days for someone else and 2 days for yourself.

Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by watwut on Thursday April 23, 2020 @06:03AM (#22954359)
Serfdom is much more then just "paying taxes in work time". It was basically totalitarian dictatorships and also quite ineffective economically. Abolition increased agricultural productivity and peasants' nutrition.
Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by pojzon on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:30PM (#22958454)
When we are discussing in the context of “how much work i have to put in for someone else vs how much for myself” - my point still stands. Peasents had to work for their feudal lord a lot less than I for example have to work for company shareholders. TBH with pretty absurd ratio right now.
Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by watwut on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:50PM (#22958705)
You get paid for your work. You can change company you work for. If you don't want to work for company, you can try running self-sufficient farm - which is how peasant gained food.

Except that peasant did not owned the land. Could not make his farm larger nor smaller. If lord decided you will produce more grains instead of vegetables, peasant had to oblige regardless of own preferences. And peasants had to give part of produce to lord. And had to use Lords mills and what not instead of choosing them in free market.

Nor could peasant change occupation or marry without Lords permission.

Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by pojzon on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:31PM (#22959295)
There is a lot of shallow talking in what you said because things are not black/white. And yes I can change the company I work for also reducing workdays amount but that will directly make my life unsustainable and I dont have an option to buy 50 morgs of field to start a farm (this costs around few million dollars where I live) and thats the area lords were giving to their peasents..

So yea your argument is:

- “just go and die if you dont like working 3 times as much as your ancestors”

Which makes you look pretty stupid if you ask me.

Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by watwut on Thursday April 23, 2020 @03:51PM (#22960380)
Resorting to insults when you dont have arguments is kind of weak technique.

The problem with underperforming agriculture and lack of nutrition was persistent in that system. You seem to assume that peasants under serfdom had easy low work access to food and everything. That is not the case. The land does not produce food for whole year without you working it a lot.

Peasants in serfdom had hard time to produce enough food for themselves.

Peasant did not tended to few million dollars worth of land. Lords were not giving land to peasants. Rather, peasants were sold along with land and belonged to the land. That is massive difference - serfdom was one step above slavery.

Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by pojzon on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:43PM (#23105024)
You still completely missed the point again, which convinces me this discussion has no sense. We were not discussing the live conditions back then and now but how much you had to work for your land lord vs for yourself. Disparity is huge... and its just stupid to deny that...
Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by claudiawerner on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:12PM (#22951856)
> Is there reason to think that people in the past were more selfless and less economically motivated?

Perhaps, but perhaps not. The point isn't about some innate feature of humans that has only increased recently, but rather that throughout history humans (and the great classes therein) have faced material (not only economic) hardships. It is material conditions which drive history.

I think there is a huge dividing line between inventing to seek profit and seeking "other kinds of status". The only thing in common these motivations have is that they arise due to our relations with other humans. Likewise, many motivations, depending on the predominant point of view (which certainly does change with time and place) can be viewed either altruistically or selfishly. I'd wager that a cynical society, or one dominated by the totalizing logic of capital ("accumulate!") would have a tendency to see previous motivations as selfish, because it's very hard to empathize with people through history. In other words, we view things in a certain way because it is unimaginable to us to see it any other way, since we have no experience with those times and places and the motivations therein.

The ancient world is filled with proverbs and sayings and stories of heroism for some kind of greater good, certainly without looking for some kind of profit, and more often than not, without looking for some kind of recognition. As to whether these are just stories we tell or whether there is some truth to them is an important question. It's probably worth asking anthropology, or at the very least sociology. The latter has discovered huge changes in public consciousness since the industrial revolution.

Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by flukus on Thursday April 23, 2020 @03:28AM (#22953621)
> Is there reason to think that people in the past were more selfless and less economically motivated?

They were certainly less consumerist and didn't have the constant onslaught of advertising telling them to buy shiny new things. They were far more self reliant and able to repair things for themselves, which tends to constantly breeds it's own innovations. Lots of little tricks and custom devices tend to crop up (over engineering isn't just for programmers) yet very few will get commercialize, at best they'll be passed along to future generations but many will get lost.

> 'd wager that throughout history, most great ideas and optimizations came from people who were either seeking profit or other kinds of status

I'd wager most were out of necessity and/or laziness and most died out or were replaced by newer technology. Swords, scythes and shoes didn't have single inventors, they had generations of hackers tweaking them.

Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by eli_gottlieb on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:33PM (#22951667)
> Is there reason to think that people in the past were more selfless and less economically motivated?

Einstein certainly was.

Re:Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? by eindiran on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:50PM (#22951754)
I don't think your parent comment meant "is is not the case that there exists at least one person in the past who was more selfless and less economically motivated".