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Re:Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google by ghshephard on Sunday March 06, 2011 @02:42PM (#2294827)
I'm going to (respectfully) take issue with your claim here, though I would happy to be proven wrong. I am clearly an early adopter (as pretty much 95% of people on HN likely are) when it comes to technology, particularly online technology. I routinely use paypal (+bump), buy almost everything online, haven't touched a paper book or newspaper in over two years. I even have a SquareUp dongle and use it from time to time. I have over 200 transactions in Paypal and over 500 purchases from Amazon.com. I won't even try to calculate the number of iTunes purchases (content+Apps) I've made.

I've heard of E-Gold, and may have created an account- but I've never used them. I just IM'd three of my friends - one had heard of it, two hadn't. None had ever used it. They all frequently use both Paypal and Amazon (one is a prime member).

I realize that anecdote is not the singular of data, but, a quick glance at Wikipedia, shows that at their peak, E-gold only had 5 million accounts - 2.5% of what Apple has today. (And, in Apple's case, these accounts are connected to an actual Credit Card customer)

So - two things to be aware of:

o E-Gold was relatively small. When you are small, you can't afford to hire the high-level risk management talent. These people are rare, and very expensive. Therefore, one of the critical tasks of _small_ payment processors (not the large ones, Apple/Google/Amazon can afford their salaries and departmental budgets) is to survive long enough and not get shut down by making these mistakes. I'm certain Paypal, when it was smaller, also came close to the abyss several times before they got to scale.

o Of course, the way you get to scale is you make yourself attractive, _or_ you subsidized your payment processing with the rest of your business. (Think about Microsoft buying their way into Console Entertainment)

I'll agree that fraud and risk management are important, but I do not believe that they are barriers to success for the companies the author had identified, they are more important to the smaller players (E-Gold).

For the larger players the question they have to answer for sellers is "Why should we use you? Which consumers are using your system that would make it worthwhile to going to the hassle to adding you as a payment option?" For the consumers it is "What do you do better than my existing Credit Card/Paypal Account which has served me well as a consumer?"

Re:Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google by SoftwareMaven on Sunday March 06, 2011 @03:11PM (#2294899)
PayPal spent $300M learning how to deal with fraud[0]. This money is in terms of investment in development and outright monetary losses. The problem is you can't get a large number of users while you are also being taken apart by fraud. When dealing with payments, finding users is not your hardest problem.

[0] Source: One of the investors in my company was involved fairly early in PayPal. We've had many conversations about this matter, especially regarding another company I was working with at the time that was building an "anonymous" wallet.

Re:Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google by jules on Sunday March 06, 2011 @04:28PM (#2295076)
And all of this because the credit card model is fundamentally flawed. When buying something it's like sending the seller a trivially copyable key to your vault and letting him get the money he wants.
Re:Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google by lsc on Sunday March 06, 2011 @05:56PM (#2295277)
While I agree that credit cards could be a whole lot more secure (using the same token for identification and authentication is just plain stupid) fixing that still leaves you a long ways away from solving the fraud problem.

E-gold used username/password pairs and seemed to be making pretty good progress towards solving the 'using someone else's account' kind of fraud.

The kind of fraud that killed e-gold (and I think, the harder kind of fraud to solve) is "he sold me a defective whatsit" or "after I paid him, he never sent my thingamajig"

If you don't solve that harder problem, you quickly become known as the payment method of choice for criminals.

Re:Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google by jules on Sunday March 06, 2011 @07:23PM (#2295478)
That isn't a harder problem. It's a much much easier problem. YOU can decide where to buy from. It's a much saner system from both the customer and the seller's perspective.

And it works right now. In the Netherlands there is a system called iDEAL that works like this:

1. You go to a seller's site e.g. bol.com (which is like amazon). 2. You fill your cart and click checkout. 3. You get sent to your bank's site with a page that displays the amount and a button "pay". 4. The bank then transfers the money to bol.com.

Re:Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google by lsc on Sunday March 06, 2011 @07:44PM (#2295522)
That's almost exactly what e-gold did.

They stated as a design goal that you shouldn't be able to back out of a transaction once it's gone through. The problem was that the system became popular with sellers of fraudulent goods, and this does, eventually, start to cause problems.

I suspect that iDEAL has some way of letting you report fraud and get a refund from your bank if you get ripped off. they probably have some form of chargbacks, etc.

Re:Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google by jules on Sunday March 06, 2011 @07:56PM (#2295548)
It works like wire transferring money to the seller, you get the same rights and protections. In fact it is wire transferring money to the seller.

Charging back is not easy, but it is not a problem in the least. It's only a problem when you buy from people you don't trust (but then I wouldn't want to give them my credit card number at all!). This does happen on sites like ebay. The risk is moved from the seller to the buyer. For sites like ebay you need a middle man to be safe, only now you need it as a buyer instead of as a seller.