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Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by superhuzza on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @01:21PM (#22937028)
Certainly doesn't make me want to use any software made by this guy.
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by selykg on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @02:09PM (#22937632)
Curious why...

Your security should never depend upon security of your source code. If you're doing things correctly, then the source code doesn't change anything about the security of the data that is encrypted.

Perhaps you mean that he chose to use 40-bit keys instead of 256-bit keys in the free version? I mean, I guess. But that's just a matter of better understanding the details. It sounds like he outlined this clearly and anyone looking for more security knew to pay for the product to get the 256-bit keys.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by rcoveson on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @02:55PM (#22938130)
> Your security should never depend upon security of your source code.

For sure. I don't think it's about that, though.

Even if the application in question were open source, if the project lead is willing to cooperate in any way their government asks, they could probable ensure the existence of a back door. For this reason, where possible, I would prefer to use encryption software written by people who are principled to a fault (or who at least do a good job acting as if they were).

Let's imagine Linus Torvalds or Greg Kroah-Hartman in this same situation. Linux source is available, so let's say they were asked to ensure that a certain patch to a cryptographic API was not accepted before a certain window. Maybe the crypto API maintainers were on the call as well saying that they were on board with the plan (apologies to those people, I don't know you and mean no offense). I like to think that they would:

1. Turn down the NSA.

2. Attempt to get the word out about what they had been asked.

3. Find new crypto maintainers.

And yes, it's entirely possible that this is not at all how it would go down. Maybe they would be very cooperative. I don't know any of these people personally. But what I do know is that they have not, as of yet, made a blog post about that time when the NSA did ask them to betray an unspecified user and how they did everything they asked without resistance.

I don't think I'm being idealistic here. Software and encryption are global endeavors. People who blindly believe that the enemies of their state are also their enemies, or even that obedience to local laws is a moral imperative, should not write crypto software. Or at least, I hope they make their beliefs known like this guy did so that I can avoid their software.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by selykg on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:07PM (#22938795)
Being willing to provide source code is entirely different than inserting a backdoor or purposefully holding back security updates.

One should have zero impact, as I said, modern crypto algorithms do not depend on keeping the algorithm secret to maintain security. Implementation can absolutely be full of bugs that are incorrectly using crypto primitives though.

The other has a direct impact on security.

I don't think one blurs the line to the other, they're fundamentally different things.

If anything, this is further proof that you need to use crypto properly because it literally means someone with code in hands won't have any advantages in attempting to break that encryption.

To me anyway, someone willing to give source code to the NSA doesn't imply they'd be willing to do nefarious things. There's nothing inherently nefarious about giving the NSA source code.

That said, I can understand being skeptical, but people love to talk about how open source is more secure because it has eyeballs on it. But now we try to pull the "it's not secure because the source was given to the NSA"

It can't be both ways.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by rcoveson on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:41PM (#22939096)
Source availability helps in crafting successful exploits in the real world.

Providing the source of a closed source project to an adversary so that they can break your software is nefarious.

If the author's justification was...

"My crypto implementation is perfect. There are no bugs in my code, so providing source code (which the user community does not have) to an adversary does not have any effect on any user's security."

...then the author is simply incompetent, not malicious. But I am not inclined to accuse the author of such incompetence.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by selykg on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @05:48PM (#22939687)
So you’re saying open source projects are less secure than closed source.

You might be the only person around here to ever try that argument in public.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by rcoveson on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @07:38PM (#22940478)
That's not what I'm saying at all.

Most people who argue that open source is equally or more secure than close source software do not argue that access to source code provides zero benefit to attackers. Instead, they argue that the benefit gained by the many additional sets of eyes belonging to researchers and other "good guys" outweighs the detrimental effect of letting the "bad guys" see as well.

The question in this instance is not whether the closed-source-superior or open-source-superior security camps is correct. The only related question is: "Does access to source code provide any benefit whatsoever to an attacker?"

I don't think I'm the "only person around here" who would argue that yes, it does. And that if you're taking the closed-source route, like this project's author, you can't provide copies of your source code to one specific attacker when they ask. If you do that, you're _definitely_ worse off (from a security perspective) than the people in the open source camp. I'm sure the closed-source-superiority people would agree.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by thomaslord on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @07:56PM (#22940596)
Not necessarily - the normal argument for open source being secure is that the source code can be reviewed by the community and any security issues will be noticed and patched. In this case the parent specifically mentions source code the community doesn't have access to.
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by MichaelBurge on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @05:00PM (#22939281)
Your argument is that withholding source code raises the cost of attack for the NSA. They'll have to buy expensive decompilers, hire competent assembly/C programmers, it'll take longer, etc.

Seems like it would similarly be unethical for a local bakery to give the NSA a discount on cheesecake.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by rcoveson on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @05:25PM (#22939497)
The NSA does a lot of things. A lot of them are good. Some of them are bad.

When the NSA asks you to help them do bad things, you say no. If you feel inspired to give them a cheesecake discount because of the good things they do, that is fine.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by LocalH on Thursday April 23, 2020 @06:20AM (#22954448)
NSA buying a decompiler? When Ghidra exists?
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by meowface on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @03:52PM (#22938683)
I'm pretty sure if the NSA asked him to add a backdoor, he wouldn't do it. (They already asked if he had an existing one, and he clearly realized how bad that would be if there was.)
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by rcoveson on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:51PM (#22939177)
That may well be true. But still, this story influences my _guess at the likelihood_ that this author would do so in the direction of "more likely."

Likelihood that the authors/owners of software are willing to cooperate, and capable of cooperating, with adversaries is an important metric for comparing options. Very high profile open source maintainers are less capable, due to the oversight of the community. Anarchist- or security-absolutist type personalities are less likely. The author and his project don't fit either bill.

I'm not arguing that this is the only metric that matters when considering one's options. But it does matter.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by rckoepke on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:49AM (#22944946)
My understanding is that he may not have a choice. With a combination of an NSL and the all-writs-act, the US government can likely compel any non-FAANG domestic entity to do nearly anything short of murder.
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by stevep98 on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @02:53PM (#22938116)
At that time, if you made software available for export (and that included making a version freely downloadable), it was limited by law to 40 bits.
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by hinkley on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @03:08PM (#22938266)
The practice of looking up algorithms by name dates back to that same time. The phrasing of the law, since they were treated as munitions, was that you couldn't even export something that was designed to have crypto bolted on. So you made it so anything could be bolted on and some of them just happened to be crypto.

The legacy being things like the blacklist/whitelist discussion we had the other day about case sensitivity in crypto algorithms. We still look up algorithms by string name (instead of enum or some other mechanism) decades later.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by mratsim on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @06:07PM (#22939869)
But books had exemptions and you could export crypto as long as it was printed on a book
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by partiallypro on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @01:40PM (#22937267)
I guess to be fair, this was in 2000. Before we knew the Snowden revelations, etc. I also wonder if he handed over just the source code to the shareware version or the full version? Also, nearly everything is open sourced now...so I guess it isn't the biggest boundary to cross?
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by raverbashing on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @03:56PM (#22938713)
> I also wonder if he handed over just the source code to the shareware version or the full version?

It's probably an #IFDEF or an if (registered) somewhere in the source code.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by secfirstmd on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @02:58PM (#22938169)
We knew about Crypto AG and Echelon at this point though.
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by jacobush on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @05:15PM (#22939405)
I knew about Echelon in 1998, but nobody I talked to would believe a word of it. (Or rather, I "knew" what other people ranted about on web pages with badly scanned photos of satellite dishes. But still.)
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by pixxel on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @01:39PM (#22937241)
This was pre 9/11 too, so he didn’t hesitate to hand over the source code based on any sense of patriotism.
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by Hnrobert42 on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @10:36PM (#22941481)
There were patriots before 9/11.
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by xenocyon on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @05:15PM (#22939408)
As others have pointed out, the source code isn't endangering the user(s).

Nonetheless, I agree with you. The writer appears emotionally swayed and flattered by the request, like a protagonist in a WWII-era young-adult novel ("Your country needs you!"), and is eager to satisfy the ask immediately without the slightest bit of skepticism or diligence. That's not the kind of temperament one would want an encryption software dev to have.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by tinus_hn on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @05:19PM (#22939439)
Better not use any software by Microsoft then. Also definitely none of that scary open source stuff by people who’ll just hand over the code to anyone who asks.
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by superhuzza on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @08:51PM (#22940927)
Kind of missing the point, it's not about the source code. It's about the authors willingness to cooperate just because an NSA agent implied "it's important".
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by tinus_hn on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:36AM (#22946000)
Consider the amount of cooperation which in this case was ‘send them the source code’.
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by Hnrobert42 on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @10:35PM (#22941476)
So you don’t use any open source stuff, huh?
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by marcus_holmes on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @01:52PM (#22937408)
Why not?

I mean, if the cops turned up at your door with a search warrant, you'd let them in, right?

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by burrows on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @01:58PM (#22937500)
The NSA agent didn't have a "search warrant".
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by marcus_holmes on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @03:35AM (#22943155)
No they didn't, but they proved who they were to the OP's satisfaction, and left it to him to decide whether he should help them or not.

To me, this is a bit of a no-brainer. A government agency wants my help to do something. Do I trust them? Do I help them? Well... yes. They're the government. Incompetent sometimes, irrelevant a lot of the time, inefficient, sure. But ultimately there to provide a service for me as a citizen. If they need my help, then I should probably help them.

I understand that Americans don't trust their government like this. I'm not sure why not.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by duncan_bayne on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @06:17AM (#22944041)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

Those two spring to mind immediately, and I'm not American, I'm Australian.

Personally, I don't understand why anyone trusts their Government more than the bare minimum required to support the rule of law.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by ycombi3 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @08:54AM (#22955374)
You can lead a horse to water.... People are way to trusting.
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by rcoveson on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:57PM (#22939246)
If I ran an neighborhood ISP, and the cops asked me to spy on a neighbor (for reasons they wouldn't even provide), then I'd shut down first.

If they just wanted to search _my_ stuff, sure. But if the only reason that I'm even capable of assisting the government in spying on somebody is that they are my customer, neighbor, friend, or user then I will not offer that assistance. That would be evil. Don't be evil.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by Hnrobert42 on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @10:45PM (#22941527)
Supporting the government in lawful operations is not evil. There are many, many examples of the abuse of power by the government. But at least in the US, there is a system of checks and balances including freedom of the press and an independent judiciary.

If we give up faith in those things then we will succumb to a lawless, might-makes-right society. What makes you think you know better than the duly elected and appointed representatives of the people? Ok, fine. Tell it to a judge. But if you lose, then comply.

TL;DR: I don’t like “the man” either, but in the end, the man is us. We thwart him at our peril.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by rcoveson on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @03:19PM (#22949166)
> Supporting the government in lawful operations is not evil.

No, it often is. I don't think I need to cite examples.

I'm not advocating for anarchy, and I haven't given up faith in the justice system as a whole. However, there are still many things that I will not do, despite being legally compelled. Leveraging my relationships, professional or personal, to help an agency with a dirty track record spy on people is among those things.

Statements like this...

> Tell it to a judge. But if you lose, then comply.

...are extremely problematic. You can argue that most of the time, in a social order that you believe to be a net positive, you should comply rather than rebel. But phrasing it as an absolute perpetuates any existing authority, no matter how corrupt, forever. If you are sufficiently confident that the right thing to do, taking into account all the disruption it may cause, is not to comply, then you are still morally obligated not to comply.

What is right and what is legal do not always agree. And yes, that is still true even in a society that theoretically allows for change "through the proper channels". Even in the US, many of the most important changes to the law have been made by breaking it. Again, I don't feel the need to cite examples, since we have entire days of the year to celebrate most of them.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by ycombi3 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @08:30AM (#22955216)
The government version of "lawful operations" is them just getting some flimsy warrant rubber stamped by a judge who has absolutely no clue (or care) about how technology works.

The great thing about technology is that it doesn't have to put up with things like useless warrants. Using encryption is the equivalent to have a reinforced door protecting you from people who want to do harm to you that ignores all warrants and cannot be broken or talked down. Thank god for encryption that works, it literally saves lives from the current crops of tyrannical governments worldwide.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by duncan_bayne on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @06:19AM (#22944055)
At what point in the author's encounter with Dave did Dave provide any evidence whatsoever that he was engaged in a lawful operation?
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by burrows on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @05:03PM (#22939306)
The cops plant CP your servers. Help them spy on Joey Beer or they'll pursue criminal charges against you. Now what?
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by rcoveson on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @05:21PM (#22939460)
Gun to my head, would I still do the right thing?

Of course I'll say yes, and I hope it's true. Thankfully, I probably won't ever have to find out. But if it does come to that, and I choose wrong, I know I won't write a blog post about it.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by Hnrobert42 on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @10:47PM (#22941541)
What are you talking about? What are the odds of this? I mean really, like out of all the CP allegations, how many of them are fabricated by the police?
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by ycombi3 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @08:53AM (#22955370)
You might be surprised.

Check out what the fbi was doing to people a few years back hacking into victim's networks.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by voz_ on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @01:54PM (#22937434)
Wait, why would you not want to use software relied on for national security interests?
Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by Frost1x on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @02:16PM (#22937698)
Does this jump into the "something/nothing to hide" argument?

The idea that there's an intentional backdoor through security for some institution that may or may not be acting in your best interest is enough for me to not want to use it.

Just about everyone has something to hide, but what they're hiding and the reasons they're hiding it may only be used as leverage against them and have nothing that's a threat to anyone else. My encrypted data has some old tax returns and past medical records--nothing too exciting or compromising, but neither are things I want random people having access to should my copy of the data be compromised.

There are plenty of valid reasons not to want a government agency to be able to pry into every aspect of it's citizens lives. I'd say most people hiding things do it for a lot of social/cultural purposes that aren't too significant at least not in terms of national security.

Take most peoples' browser history--few people want others crawling through searches that might make them feel stupid or insecure for whatever reason. Perhaps they looked at someone's public profile they're interested in dating and don't want to be labeled a 'creep' or perhaps they've been making great use of the free PornHub Premium access lately. People have rights to secure/hide those things and they're no real threat to national security.

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by Hnrobert42 on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @10:55PM (#22941583)
That’s not the question. The question is, why would opening source to the NSA cause you to lose trust in the quality of work.

You seem to have answered the question, “Why is privacy good?” Your answer, at least to me, seems valid, but if you are answering other questions, I would ask, “Can you imagine situations in which individual liberties are trumped by physical safety of a large number of folks?” How have you reacted to CoVID-19 restrictions? Are those two things really so different?

Re:The NSA called me after midnight and requested my source ... by marcus_holmes on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @03:39AM (#22943170)
>> People have rights to secure/hide those things when they're no real threat to national security

ftfy