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Re:Shirt Without Stripes by albertzeyer on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:20PM (#22929404)
I guess, even in the original results, the problem is not really that Google search was not understanding the meaning of the search term (which is possible with today's models). Rather, it was a bit confused about what you are really searching for here. Maybe a comparison of shirts with and without stripes? The search query was just unusual, and it is not too unreasonable to guess that the query was not meant literally. At least this is a valid possibility, that the query was not meant literally. So it is reasonable to just return some results which might be related to the query, which will also be shirts with stripes.

If you argue this is bad behavior: Maybe we need a web query which really only takes the query literally. Putting the query in quotes will not quite have this effect for Google. Maybe some other syntax?

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by tcgv on Monday April 20, 2020 @07:04PM (#22929833)
> the problem is not really that Google search was not understanding the meaning of the search term (...) Rather, it was a bit confused about what you are really searching for here. Maybe a comparison of shirts with and without stripes?

In this very specific case I don't buy it. Sure, it probably applies for other queries, but if you approach a salesperson and ask him for "shirts without stripes" it's pretty clear what you want, and he wont bring you any piece with stripes on it.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by indecisive_user on Monday April 20, 2020 @07:56PM (#22930310)
Agreed, it's not that weird of a search. Other, similar queries like "shirt without buttons/collar/pocket" seem to work just fine.

The only difference is that those are all physical properties of a shirt while stripes is a type of pattern.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by zaat on Monday April 20, 2020 @08:54PM (#22930696)
Shirt without paisley - fails

shirt without buttons - preety much fail.

shirt without red button - as already expected, shirts with red buttons

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by ghayes on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @02:31AM (#22932551)
To be fair, the first and last query would also confuse me if someone asked me for that item. "Shirt without paisley" feels a bit like "cereal without elephants." You don't usually explicitly exclude an element that is relatively uncommon.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by thw0rted on Friday April 24, 2020 @06:25AM (#22966495)
It's not just the way this is phrased, it's that there is no English-language formulation that works at all. Swap "shirt" for "tie", because paisley is quite common on ties. Now, try:

* tie without paisley * tie not paisley * non-paisley ties * ties that aren't paisley * ties other than paisley

You guessed it, in each case, at least half of the results are paisley ties. The only way to actually get what you want -- the set described by X, minus the set described by Y -- is to use the exclusion operator in the search, "ties -paisley".

This is great, and makes intuitive sense to somebody with multiple computer science degrees. But not only is it hard to explain to an outsider, it's actually quite hard to get them to think in a way that accommodates this capability, that is, in terms of set theory.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by drongoking on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @11:09AM (#22935570)
I don't agree. Paisley is a well-known pattern type and some people really dislike it. "Shirt without paisley" is not a common request but its meaning is clear (if you do an image search for paisley you get lots of fabric images, so it's not like search engines don't know it.) I'd say the same for "shirt without red buttons." In general the pattern <article of clothing> without <feature> shouldn't be that difficult for search engines---especially since many are tuned for consumers.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by 32gbsd on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @09:58PM (#22941262)
observations; firstly one can assume that google search can do no wrong. second observation is google search is made for noobs. thirdly you broke it because you are not a noob. 4th this will not be fixed because of said non-noob status.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by lonelappde on Monday April 20, 2020 @08:53PM (#22930687)
This is way overthinking it. The search engines aren't semantically analyzing the images. They are just matching nearby text.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by wyattpeak on Monday April 20, 2020 @10:00PM (#22931125)
I agree the parent is overthinking it, but that's underthinking it. It's been a long time since search engines were mere text matchers.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by uniqueid on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:30AM (#22933097)
I’m uncomfortable with your use of “mere.” It might connote that what Google Search does now is an improvement.
Re:Shirt Without Stripes by wyattpeak on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @01:07PM (#22936882)
And that's exactly what I mean to connote, text matches make for appalling search.

I have the same reservations about Google as anyone, but rewriting history is never the right move. Moving beyond text matching was what made search truly useful.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by uniqueid on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @02:31PM (#22937875)

    > Moving beyond text matching was 
    > what made search truly useful. 
PageRank is what made Google more useful than its competition. They had it since the beginning, and I like it.

What I don't like is to search for the band "Chrisma" and get results for "fruitcake sale!" because Google corrected my spelling to "Christmas", decided to look for related concepts, and then boost whichever result is the most mercantile.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by wyattpeak on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @09:46PM (#22941212)
> They had it since the beginning

Yes, they have. Read what I said again, I don't dispute this. What Google does now is an improvement over text matchers. I never claimed that what they do now is better than Google circa 2000 (though I don't care to register an opinion either way on that).

Whatever they've done since, their product remains better than text matchers. Mercantile search is better than terrible search.

Re:Shirt Without Stripes by liveoneggs on Saturday April 25, 2020 @05:18PM (#22981594)
now they are product matchers