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Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by tptacek on Saturday March 05, 2011 @11:16AM (#2291683)
Aaron. I promise, it is all love with me and this comment. But, get over yourself. You are the 100 zillionth programmer to discover they are sick of programming and of the programming "scene". One programmer I knew became a roofer. Another became a trader. I know programmers who became doctors and lawyers. I haven't read Hardy, but you make him sound like a jerk.
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by impendia on Saturday March 05, 2011 @11:44AM (#2291733)
"I haven't read Hardy, but you make him sound like a jerk."

Hardy wrote of Srinivasa Ramanujan's untimely death that it was "not a great tragedy" that he died at the age of thirty-two, as he was already too old to do serious mathematics.

"A Mathematician's Apology" is the bitter rant of a man who only valued one thing in his life and had largely lost the ability to do it in his old age. If I had read it and believed it ten years ago, I never would have gone for my Ph.D. in mathematics.

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by Alex3917 on Saturday March 05, 2011 @12:22PM (#2291819)
>"A Mathematician's Apology" is the bitter rant of a man who only valued one thing in his life and had largely lost the ability to do it in his old age.

It's been a while since I've read it, but isn't it mostly a theory on what makes something beautiful and worth doing? It's always struck me as being probably one of the most important essays of all time.

I find it interesting that what Aaron and you took from the essay has essentially zero overlap with my take.

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by robg on Saturday March 05, 2011 @01:55PM (#2292028)
I thought AMA was incredibly sad. Both for what he thought was important, what he didn't, and how that changed. As a huge baseball fan, I also loved that the one constant were the daily scores.
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by impendia on Saturday March 05, 2011 @05:08PM (#2292607)
"Mostly a theory...": I agree it's that too.
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by mathgladiator on Saturday March 05, 2011 @12:27PM (#2291832)
I think there is cause to read it and reflect on your life and say "hey, I should value more than one thing in life".

I think devoting your life to one thing is the temptation of a life in academia, but it also is a path to bitterness.

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by jeremyw on Saturday March 05, 2011 @11:54AM (#2291752)
Thomas, it's your point I'd like to hear from more hackers. I went through a similar period years ago, slowly discovering that I hated programming, and certainly had no idea it was ubiquitous. I had just started a new company and it was the worst possible time to learn it. Moreso, programming from boyhood (whizkid!) made it sewn up in my identity. Crisis!

Management was an escape for a while. And luckily it disappeared, like teenage allergies. Now I can't wait to hack in the mornings. But at the time, it was devastating.

On a related point, all the folks I know who exited programming for other careers, were lesser programmers. I certainly didn't want to make that self-discovery. :)

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by burgerbrain on Saturday March 05, 2011 @04:03PM (#2292420)
Around here we call it "doing an Office Space".

Of course it's sometimes unclear if it instead means (or also includes?) burning down the building....

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by tptacek on Saturday March 05, 2011 @03:29PM (#2292304)
I would not have written this comment had I noticed the post was from 2006. Sorry, Aaron.
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by shadowsun7 on Saturday March 05, 2011 @12:42PM (#2291873)
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by jdp23 on Saturday March 05, 2011 @02:42PM (#2292148)
I thought HN was supposed to be a place where people are nice to each other and voice opinions on subjects that they know something about. So why has Thomas's snide and condescending post ending with him boasting that he hasn't read Hardy been voted up?
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by tptacek on Saturday March 05, 2011 @02:50PM (#2292174)
I really think you missed the point of my comment, Jon Pincus.

I enjoyed watching 'mahmud and 'delirium go at it over the merits of Hardy, but my comment wasn't judging him and didn't ask for that debate.

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by jdp23 on Saturday March 05, 2011 @09:03PM (#2293216)
I don't know what the point of your comment was -- I'm not a mind reader. Words like "get over it" and saying that he was the zillionth person to say that sure sound judgmental to me. Plus, as you discovered after my comment, you hadn't even taken the time to notice that it was from 2006 and wouldn't have written it if you did.

And yet you still got voted up. Why do you think that is?

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by tptacek on Monday March 07, 2011 @10:06AM (#2297314)
Thbthbthbthbthbhtbthhtbhtt.
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by mahmud on Saturday March 05, 2011 @11:25AM (#2291698)
Hardy was a whining, privileged bore. He had the time to do all that "maths" and watch all those cricket games because he didn't need to work for a living.
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by _delirium on Saturday March 05, 2011 @11:39AM (#2291724)
Do you say the same of all people who are paid as professors? For example, Knuth has time to do all that "algorithms", write books about Jesus, and give away software for free, because he doesn't need to work for a living.

As far as I can tell, Hardy was born to a fairly middle-class family (parents were schoolteachers), and got his job at Oxford because he was one of the best English mathematicians of his generation.

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by mahmud on Saturday March 05, 2011 @11:53AM (#2291745)
None of what I said was insulting or wrong.

Hardy didn't "work" for a living, to him mathematics was an obsessive hobby. He had a very strict routine; get up, walk, maths, watch cricket, tea, maths, eat, etc. He almost had the same daily routine as Kant, another bore, except the cricket.

Also, class has nothing to do with it. He was born into the imperial crown, and given his education, he was guaranteed a post in India or Africa and a "handsome life". The man was no Russel; he was an elitist who was indifferent to reaping the rewards of colonialism.

Knuth is very much a proletariat. No comparison.

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by _delirium on Saturday March 05, 2011 @12:05PM (#2291781)
Apart from your evidence-free assertion that there's "no comparison", I don't see much difference, except in personal attitudes (which isn't the point of my comparison). Knuth doesn't "work" for a living; to him computer science is an obsessive hobby. He has a very strict routine, which even involves using two computers, one with the internet and one without, and specific times set aside for answering correspondence versus writing versus doing other things. He's been working on TAOCP for decades because it's his obsession, not because it's a job. He can't imagine doing anything else, which is why he keeps writing it even in retirement. He has never taken a non-academic job in his life; he became a professor at age 25, and remained one until his retirement.

And really, "whining, privileged bore" wasn't intended as an insult?

Also, how does Russell fare better in your comparison? An aristocrat who wrote "In Praise of Idleness" while never having to work a day in his life? The archetype of the upper-class, socialist professor?

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by gigamonkey on Saturday March 05, 2011 @01:31PM (#2291978)
> He has never taken a non-academic job in his life;

That's not quite right. He did at least consulting work outside of academia. As I quote him in Coders at Work: "For example, some of the best work I did for Burroughs Corporation was to debug their hardware designs. Their engineers would show me the specs for their computer and I would look at it and I would try to construct examples where they would be off by 1 or something. I got more than 200 bugs out of their B-5000–series machines before they went into production, although it had passed the simulators."

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by mahmud on Saturday March 05, 2011 @12:26PM (#2291826)
What are you going on about? They're completely different types of mathematicians. Knuth is a generalist/educator/computer scientist. He is not only one of the most prolific in the field, but also chairs journals and programs, develops software, does media appearances, maintains extensive correspondences, ALL while he teaches.

Hardy didn't have a fraction of these "distractions".

You think I'm dismissive of Hardy because of his academic career. I'm not. It's his colonial era, easy ranks and easier money, that I'm critical of.

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by burgerbrain on Saturday March 05, 2011 @04:09PM (#2292437)
"It's his colonial era, easy ranks and easier money, that I'm critical of."

Methinks somebody is jelly...

But really, why should we judge mathematicians by their social stature? Should we also judge Tony Hawk for his lack of sea-turtle related knowledge? It's completely beside the point, you're just looking for something to complain about.

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by mahmud on Saturday March 05, 2011 @10:57PM (#2293408)
Don't twist my words. I have read Hardy's work more carefully than any other author, having cut my teeth on the Course.

The colonial and classist attitude is pervasive and shapes his mathematical aesthetics.

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by burgerbrain on Sunday March 06, 2011 @12:57AM (#2293593)
So what?
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by nostrademons on Saturday March 05, 2011 @09:07PM (#2293228)
"Hardy didn't "work" for a living, to him mathematics was an obsessive hobby."

That applies to a good number of Silicon Valley programmers. Do they not need to "work" for a living, simply because they can get paid for their obsessive hobbies?

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by mahmud on Saturday March 05, 2011 @11:11PM (#2293430)
Silicon Valley programmers have to compete with a growing pool of domestic and global workforce.

Hardy was a Cambridge brat; people like him were born & bred for foreign posts. The closest thing today might be being born anglo, going through military academies all your life, then graduating West Point: you ARE guaranteed certain top positions for life.

Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by defen on Saturday March 05, 2011 @11:30PM (#2293462)
You seem to have a lot of righteous anger on this topic.
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by mahmud on Saturday March 05, 2011 @11:43PM (#2293486)
Is that all you're contributing to the already long and offtopic discussion? really?
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by defen on Sunday March 06, 2011 @12:45AM (#2293574)
I was hoping you would use it as a lead-in to discuss why you're so angry about a man who died 65 years ago and who devoted his life to doing things that he thought would have no impact on the world.
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by burgerbrain on Sunday March 06, 2011 @01:11AM (#2293606)
Seriously, this is just baffling. If there wasn't a clear time-separation, I would go so far as to think that it reeked of personal grudge.
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by robg on Saturday March 05, 2011 @12:42PM (#2291872)
Would you call someone "a whining, privileged bore" to their face?
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by mahmud on Saturday March 05, 2011 @12:52PM (#2291898)
If they were in a position of power & privilege, yes. I called a foreign minister much worse things, only a few days ago, and he didn't like it (felt bad afterward though.)
Re:A Non-Programmer’s Apology by endlessvoid94 on Saturday March 05, 2011 @02:31PM (#2292110)
Then of course it's an insult.