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Re:Vaccine fears brought measles back to New York by LatteLazy on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:05AM (#22897384)
I think one of the most interesting questions today is what are people really thinking when they profess X. I don't believe most antivaxers actually think vaccines actually represent a risk in any logical way. I think they want to be different. I think they want to feel like hero's or people with inside knowledge (special people in some way). I think they want the attention. I think they want to feel more control over the world.

This is why logically explaining risk and rewards to them has no actual effect. Facts don't change how they feel, whether a vaccine is good or not does matter when someone wants to feel special or "make a stand".

This is the same as political extremism or religious or other illogical group forming processes.

Normally we just ignore these groups: if you join a sex cult or a far right militia then society at large doesn't really care. And that's still generally true for anti vax. But they are on the edge of becoming an issue (because it makes a material difference in my life if you don't vaccinate).

We've seen what happens when you try to break these groups up by force (Jones Town, Wako, etc). I wonder if we're any closer to actually preventing this issue (ironic given we're talking about vaccination). I wonder if public opinion will remain strong if and when we have to send in SWAT to drag kids out for vaccination...

Re:Vaccine fears brought measles back to New York by iamben on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:01AM (#22898244)
I see you've got a lot of downvotes for this, which is a shame because it's an interesting discussion point. I've often wondered how the rise of ardently held fringe beliefs corresponds with the decline of religion in Western society.
Re:Vaccine fears brought measles back to New York by LatteLazy on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:18AM (#22898337)
Thanks.

I find it interesting that everyone just takes religion/fringe groups at face value. Are people really going to church because God or is it community and wanting to feel part of an in-group? The same seems doubly true for antivax: have people really honestly read all the studies and open-mindedly decided its a giant conspiracy, or are they just lonely and want something to make them feel smart?

Re:Vaccine fears brought measles back to New York by danielvf on Friday April 17, 2020 @06:49AM (#22897875)
Having known many people that believe vaccines can harm kids, yes, it can be a 100% real belief, not some cover.

That's why you recognize that it would not go well to attack this with physical force - the strength of people's reaction would not because they want to appear special, but because they honestly, 100% believe someone is trying to hurt their children.

Re:Vaccine fears brought measles back to New York by LatteLazy on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:25AM (#22898368)
Sorry, my point wasn't clear. I think these people honestly believe what they claim. 100% believe it. You could MRI them and detect no (conscious) deceit. It's 100% real like you say.

But why do they believe it?

I think they believe it because it makes them feel good.

This is important because if they believed it because they'd looked at the science etc, it would mean they could be convinced by more science. But if its because of feeling, no amount of pro-vax evidence would convince them.

That's the point here: they'll die for their beliefs (some of them at least). But why do they believe it?

Until you know why, you can't challenge the belief. Your only option is to challenge the behaviour, and that's where things get messy...

Re:Vaccine fears brought measles back to New York by partyboat1586 on Friday April 17, 2020 @07:28AM (#22898067)
The reason it happens I think is because they exist in a bubble. Most people never research exactly why vaccines are safe, they just take it on trust. There is a lot more (mis)information out there on Anti Vax than Pro Vax because it's not the default position.

What you find when you look into it is that yes vaccines are safe but only because we take stringent measures to ensure that safety. They are not safe by default as most people believe. Then what you have is Anti Vax people believing they have some untapped knowledge because when they talk to people about it very few know exactly why or how vaccines are safe, just that they are which coming from the Anti Vax perspective makes you feel you know something other people don't which is enough to validate your opinion.

This doesn't take into account risk reward even if they were not safe but that's another story.

Re:Vaccine fears brought measles back to New York by krn320 on Friday April 17, 2020 @06:45AM (#22897863)
It's more about facts and real science than feeling special. The people who are against vaccines want them to really be "safe and effective" and not just labelled as such.

Two things are needed for that to happen: - a study comparing vaccined to unvaccinated (the data is already there, someone just needs to be allowed to compile it) - a proper double blinded placebo safety study which was not done for any vaccine (source: Stanley Plotkin, Vaccines Deposition, Under Oath)

Re:Vaccine fears brought measles back to New York by LatteLazy on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:10AM (#22899097)
OK, so we have done dozens of such studies. The overwhelming opinion is that vaccines are safe. Here is just one report on the many studies:

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/2f93s53t

Read it, and let me know if you're not convinced please! Aussiming you're not, I'd like to hear your reasons. I don't expect to convince you beyond the above report, but I would really appreciate hearing your thought if that's ok?

Thanks!

Re:Vaccine fears brought measles back to New York by krn320 on Saturday April 18, 2020 @03:00PM (#22910185)
This is a review and as they usually do they excluded all the convenient research and data. So we'd need to look at every paper taken into account for this review and look at it separately.

On the other hand you can take a look at one of these. There is a whole range of issues here: lack of immunity after vaccination, shedding (infecting other people after vaccinations), adverse affects. And it's just a small sample of studies, there is a lot more out there.

Adverse Events following 12 and 18 Month Vaccinations: a Population-Based, Self-Controlled Case Series Analysis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3236196/

A dose-response relationship between organic mercury exposure from thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25198681

Relative trends in hospitalizations and mortality among infants by the number of vaccine doses and age, based on the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), 1990-2010. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22531966

Is infant immunization a risk factor for childhood asthma or allergy? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9345669

Infant mortality rates regressed against number of vaccine doses routinely given: Is there a biochemical or synergistic toxicity? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/

Infection, vaccines and other environmental triggers of autoimmunity. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16126512

Increased Risk of Noninfluenza Respiratory Virus Infections Associated With Receipt of Inactivated Influenza Vaccine http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/54/12/1778.long

A measles outbreak in a middle school with high vaccination coverage and evidence of prior immunity among cases, Beijing, P.R. China https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X1...

Adverse events following immunization with vaccines containing adjuvants. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23576057

Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis following Vaccination against Hepatitis B in a Child: A Case Report and Literature Review. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27478662/

Pertussis epidemic despite high levels of vaccination coverage with acellular pertussis vaccine. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24216286/

[Major measles epidemic in the region of Quebec despite a 99% vaccine coverage] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1884314

Impact of influenza vaccination on seasonal mortality in the US elderly population. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15710788