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Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by URSpider94 on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @02:54PM (#22881565)
This is not the bar that's typically applied for drug trials. The goal of a drug trial is not to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it DOESN'T work. The goal is to prove to a high level of confidence that it DOES work.

For example, it's highly unlikely (roughly less than 2.5%) that HCQ reduces the onset of ARDS by half.

If it ultimately turns out that HCQ reduces the rate of death by 5%, we'd have to do a tremendously large trial to distinguish that effect from the control with any confidence that it's not actually killing 2% more people. Additionally, you'd have to consider that vs. the fact that it will kill some fraction of people who take it from its cardiac side effects, even if doctors are vigilant about discontinuing therapy when arhythmias are detected.

Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by radford-neal on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @03:43PM (#22882142)
This is not a typical drug trial.

Typical trials are designed to have a large enough sample size that they will be able to detect any effect big enough to be clinically important.

Here, they just went with the sample size they had available (understandably), which was so small that only a very large effect could be clearly established. It is completely wrong to interpret the lack of a statistically significant effect with this small sample size as showing that the drug doesn't work.

Consider the result regarding transfer to ICU or death:

   20.2% patients in the HCQ group were transferred to the ICU
   or died within 7 days vs 22.1% in the no-HCQ group (16 vs 21
   events, relative risk [RR] 0.91, 95% CI 0.47-1.80)
The best estimate is for 9% less risk from using the drug, with the possibility of the drug cutting the risk by more than half not being excluded in the 95% confidence interval. Of course, the possibility that the drug actually makes things worse is also not excluded, but this can certainly not be characterized as proving that the drug doesn't work.
Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by URSpider94 on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @04:20PM (#22882549)
I have no problems with the way this test was set up. It was a quick study that would have told us quickly if there was a huge benefit from HCQ. That wasn't the outcome. Larger tests with better statistical power will tell us if there is a smaller positive effect. My point is, the smaller the beneficial effect, the larger the test will have to be to find it, but also the lower the overall benefit to patients.

Again, note also that more patients on HCQ were diagnosed with ARDS, so if you pick a different measure, you get the opposite result.

Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by jamesblonde on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @05:41PM (#22883422)
My immediate reaction was that I would not expect to see an effect if you are giving HCQ to patients after they have been hospitalized by the virus. You are now into the inflamation/cytokine storm phase of COVID-19. The best chance of HCQ working is very early, ideally before or directly after exposure. The jury is still out if you take HCQ after the onset of sympthoms if that is also too late. Based on this in-vitro study - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-020-0156-0 - if I hypothetically had both Chloroquine (CQ) and Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ), I would prefer HCQ for prophylaxis/pre-sympthoms, but if I was sympthomatic, I would choose CQ. The loading time or HCQ is longer and it appears less effective at higher MOIs "the data suggest that the anti-SARS-CoV-2 activity of HCQ seems to be less potent compared to CQ, at least at certain MOIs."
Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by Reelin on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:14PM (#22883730)
> The best chance of HCQ working is very early, ideally before or directly after exposure.

Adding to this, there are at least two reasonably sized ongoing trials of HCQ with appropriate randomization and blinding in North America alone (I believe there are a number of others elsewhere). I would encourage everyone to withhold judgement until either they post results, or a similarly reliable alternative data source appears.

Target size of 3000 (https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04308668).

Target size of 400 (https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04329923).

Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by jamesblonde on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:21PM (#22883788)
Can Minnesota really recruit 3k people in the next 2 weeks? The second Patch trial won't report until 2021.
Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by Reelin on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:29PM (#22883867)
Yeah I was wondering about that myself. There are 5 participating locations listed, but even then it's a large sample size and an aggressive time frame. On the other hand, just about any healthy adult who recently came into contact with a confirmed positive case is eligible to enroll so maybe it won't be so difficult under the circumstances?
Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by tptacek on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:01PM (#22883611)
For pre-symptomatic C19 patients, we're already doing a large-scale natural experiment, because HCQ is part of widespread protocols for common ailments like RA, and the dosages those patients get are comparable. As I understand it: we're admitting lots of RA patients with C19; there doesn't seem to be a huge effect with early dosages either?
Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by jamesblonde on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:16PM (#22883752)
Yeah, it's pretty clear there isn't a huge effect. But there may still be a big enough effect to move the needle. I have no knowledge of the RA/Lupus subgroup, so any anecdotes to share are welcome!
Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by Gibbon1 on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:04PM (#22883646)
Problem with that is people with RA and Lupus are typically hyper careful about their health and most likely to be serious about self isolating.
Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by tptacek on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:17PM (#22883755)
I'll track down the source I read this from, but my claim was specifically that we are hospitalizing people with RA on HCQ already. So that doesn't really respond to what I said.
Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by nl on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @09:55PM (#22885309)
The French study (which kicked off the whole interest in this) was done after hospital admission.

(It was also mostly junk science of course too)

Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by capnrefsmmat on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:40PM (#22884474)
To be clear, this claim

> For example, it's highly unlikely (roughly less than 2.5%) that HCQ reduces the onset of ARDS by half.

is not one that can be justified by frequentist statistics such as those used in the article. We can't make probabilistic claims like that unless we go Bayesian.

Well-designed drug trials typically plan in advance to have the sample size necessary to detect an effect of clinical significance. If, say, a 20% reduction in ARDS would be valuable, you would work out what sample size you'd need to reliably detect such a reduction. In this case, we simply don't have the sample size to conclude much of anything, because the confidence intervals include what I (as a non-physician, admittedly) see as a pretty wide range of clinically meaningful effect sizes, and we can't distinguish between them.

Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by URSpider94 on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @08:11PM (#22884689)
Actually, I CAN make that claim based upon the data in the article. The relative risk [RR] of developing ARDS on HCQ vs. in the control group was 1.14, with 95% confidence interval of 0.65 - 2.00. That means that 95% of the time, the relative risk will fall between those two guardrails. If we take the single-sided probability, then the relative risk will be less 0.65 2.5% of the time. "Reducing the onset by half" means a relative risk of 0.5, which is less than the lower 95% confidence interval bound.
Re:Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in h... by capnrefsmmat on Thursday April 16, 2020 @08:28AM (#22888672)
No, this is a standard example of a claim you cannot make with frequentist statistics, and can only make with a Bayesian credible interval.

In frequentist statistics, the true population parameter is fixed, not random, so the claim "the relative risk will be less 0.65 2.5% of the time" has no meaning. The 95% claim is that if we repeatedly sample new data, 95% of the time we will generate a confidence interval covering the true parameter; but that does not say anything about the individual confidence interval in this specific case, about which we have no probability claim. Indeed, it's not clear what a 95% chance would mean for a specific interval, since probability in frequentist statistics is defined in terms of long-run probabilities over repeated samples of data.

But the impulse to interpret confidence intervals in a Bayesian way is common, since it's the question we want confidence intervals to answer. You can find a lot of academic papers arguing about this as a sign of the inadequacy of frequentist statistics.