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Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by cyphar on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @05:13AM (#22801600)
Australian here too, just graduated along with my partner (who was an international student). You're right about the long-term consequences for the university, but I would also add that universities actively undermine their international students at every turn (perhaps because there's little profit motive to help them succeed in their ludicrously expensive education).

The thing that pisses me off the most is that the student services usually provide very little guidance to international students about their legal rights in Australia, leading to massive wage exploitation (this is a global problem -- I have friends in the EU -- namely Finland -- and the US that have suffered from this too). Fears over their visas being revoked mean that they are also very unlikely to report abuses by the university or their employers to anyone. I've had to plead with friends to report their employer to Fair Work for outright wage theft, and I know many people who were lied to by their employer into thinking they can work more hours than they can (which was then effectively used as implicit blackmail -- "if you report my abuses, I can get you kicked out of the country"). They didn't know better, because they weren't told by anyone.

And then there's work experience. Many degrees (especially in engineering fields) require practical work experience in order to complete your degree, but employers are incredibly reluctant to give international students unpaid internships (let's not get into the fact that unpaid internships are actually illegal in Australia, except for the specific case of university degrees it seems). My partner has dealt with employers who have explicitly said that they don't accept international students (which is not legal as it is discriminatory), and others have done it more slyly (international students can only work 20 hours a week during semester, so they put on the job description that you must work 21 hours a week). And universities don't help here either, in fact I'm going to name and shame UTS here. At a UTS Career Fair a few years ago, they specified which employers accepted international students and which didn't on the maps (only about a quarter did) and then they gave all of the international students different coloured name badges to local students. The net result was that international students were ignored when they came to any of the "local-only" booths. I don't know if they continued this behaviour, but I sent a complaint about this when I heard about it. Absolutely disgraceful.

Sorry, I just felt the need to rant.

Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by jbarham on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @06:17AM (#22801924)
A couple of years ago I was working out of a local co-working space where one of the other tenants was an agency running a racket where they got international students to pay $1000 for the privilege of doing an unpaid internship [1]. It was a huge scandal and the agency was kicked out of the co-working space. On top of that it turned out that the interns weren't actually expected to do any work, they were effectively just buying a certificate saying that they had completed the internship which they could then use as documentation to prove that they had met the course requirements. For most international students in Australia the end goal is actually to get permanent residency. The degree/diploma is just a means to that end.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/82sxp9/pay_1000_...

Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by commandlinefan on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @09:38AM (#22803079)
> who were lied to by their employer into thinking they can work more hours than they can

And if anybody is reading this thinking, "whew, I'm sure glad I'm not an international student", this affects everybody. (I mean, you should be outraged anyway but just in case). By normalizing abusive behavior, it creeps up on everyone the same, even if it takes a little bit longer to spread.

Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by spiritplumber on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @07:30AM (#22802247)
I had a similar experience in the US. My major was EE and my passion was aerospace. I quickly learned to hide my accent because nobody would talk to me as soon as it transpired I wasn't a citizen.

One time we did a drone competition sponsored by NASA, in which it was me (Italian), two guys and a girl from Mexico, and one local whose only job was to talk to the corporate types because they wanted to talk to a citizen.

Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by Tomminn on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @07:52AM (#22802351)
A rocket- according to US employment policy- is a missile fired in a funny direction. So you need to be a citizen with a security clearance to work for any US aerospace company. This makes the cold shoulder a little more understandable, because they couldn't legally hire you even if they wanted to.
Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by MyHypatia on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @09:54AM (#22803200)
It is NOT true that you have to be a US citizen to work for a US aerospace company. Your comment can dissuade people from applying to jobs. It is true that there may be certain projects within a company that you cannot work on as a foreigner, and because of that it can be harder to get hired. But there are many foreigners who work at places like SpaceX, NASA, etc. For "sensitive country" foreign nationals (you can Google for the list) it will be extremely difficult to get hired. People from other countries should still apply to job postings unless the posting specifically says it is for US citizens only.
Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by Tomminn on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @07:21PM (#22808541)
It's true that there are some loopholes [1]. It's also true that as a permanent resident, you come under the category "US person", which some/most of the ITER law refers to, which restricts non US-persons from working with "Spacecraft Systems and Associated Equipment" [2].

But I think it's fair summary to say that if you are neither a citizen or a permanent resident, you have a damn tough hill to climb [3].

[1] https://www.quora.com/How-can-non-U-S-citizens-work-for-NASA...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_...

[3] https://www.inverse.com/article/21487-elon-musk-spacex-forei...

Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @12:35PM (#22804727)
You need it to work on ITAR related projects. I worked in a company that had internally "subcontracted" uncleared employees from another unit for design work. One was belatedly found out to be a Canadian citizen and was removed the next day.
Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by vonmoltke on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @10:34AM (#22803548)
> So you need to be a citizen with a security clearance to work for any US aerospace company.

Absolutely not. No company requires a clearance for employment in general, only for specific programs. Also, US Permanent Residents can access unclassified export-controlled information.

Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by Tomminn on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @07:32PM (#22808618)
Both good corrections. But the point about the difficulty as a non-US person remains.
Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by raverbashing on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @09:11AM (#22802847)
They are not wrong. In fact the origins of the space program were exactly like that: missiles fired in a funny direction.

(A bit ironic that it took-off after they "hired" that German scientist after WWII - pun intended)

Re:Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students... by gedy on Tuesday April 07, 2020 @07:46AM (#22802327)
That’s because most of those aerospace jobs are defense related and need citizenship and security clearances to work there.