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Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by garraeth on Sunday April 05, 2020 @10:27AM (#22785715)
> 6 (Hiring Bad Programmers) - This one also became a horrifying monster. Graham says "In practice what happens is that the business guys choose people they think are good programmers (it says here on his resume that he's a Microsoft Certified Developer) but who aren't." Darkly hilarious in hindsight.

Anecdotally I see a variant on this a lot. Many times I've seen programmers get hired based on pedigree. "You worked at [xyz company or on abc project] you must be an amazing programmer!"

Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by jyu on Sunday April 05, 2020 @10:46AM (#22785844)
The amazing programmer at xyz company on abc project may have a lot of infrastructure and support teams boosting their stats. Start ups can't afford the overhead that makes a programmer amazing. Visa versa, a start up programmer may languish in xyz company.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by s1k3s on Sunday April 05, 2020 @12:25PM (#22786499)
On the contrary, the amazing programmer at xyz company may have a lot of skills that they developed from working on a large number of different projects, systems, teams and so on, because the large company has provided them with the chances to practice all those skills.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by barrkel on Sunday April 05, 2020 @12:39PM (#22786574)
Roles at large established companies are not normally like those at startups. They tend to be on smaller areas of functionality, more specialized, and with little variety unless you swap teams (and that's almost like getting a new job).

Starting something new is quite rare, and if it's done, it needs to integrate into a whole bunch of existing stuff one way or another; whether it's builds, deployment, auth, database, payments, UI stack, whatever - large chunks of the design space have been explored before and are pretty much set in stone unless you have a lot of political capital to spike something new, or the company is dysfunctional and doesn't standardize on anything, so that it doesn't present consistently to its users and its developers are less swappable between projects.

Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by nine_k on Sunday April 05, 2020 @03:22PM (#22787829)
In a startup, you have to make things quickly, and not necessarily well. What you are building today may need to be retired in 3 months, if not earlier.

In a startup, you usually don't have the time or resources to play with tech and learn cool new things. Instead, you're hastily producing another simplest thing that could possibly work, using predictable tools you already know in and out. You're lucky if it's RoR or Node; you could be stuck with Go or PHP.

In an early-stage startup you work long hours, and are preoccupied with two things: how to divinate what the users actually want (usually nebulous and contradictory), and how to quickly make it work this way. You can easily lose track of what's interesting in the broader landscape, instead of enjoying new hotness as it gets released.

If you want some leisure, join a large established company, work efficiently, and you'll have plenty of paid time to fiddle with the cool stuff developed inside it, and elsewhere. Or become so advanced that a large company will task you with solving something actually novel, not amenable to off-the-shelf solutions.

Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by sk5t on Sunday April 05, 2020 @05:31PM (#22788908)
> You're lucky if it's RoR or Node; you could be stuck with Go or PHP

What the heck? My strong sense nowadays is that most junior-mid engineers would be excited to use Go and disappointed to touch Rails.

Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by 9nGQluzmnq3M on Sunday April 05, 2020 @07:50PM (#22789734)
It's about using the simplest thing that could possibly work, not about excitement. PHP is pathologically uncool, but it does work and it is fast for building new stuff. (God forbid you get stuck maintaining it though...)
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by nine_k on Sunday April 05, 2020 @10:30PM (#22790440)
The problem is that Go makes you write about 5x as much as Rails would, and much of it by copy-pasting.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by s1k3s on Sunday April 05, 2020 @01:02PM (#22786743)
I'll have to disagree. Having worked at a "large established company" during my career, I'd say that I've been given the chance to experiment with plenty of new things and projects are also started more often than you'd think, even though not all of them make it to a release. I understand your point, that just because you've worked at a large company it doesn't mean you have the right skills for a startup, however I will still hold my point: it highly depends and I wouldn't discard the opposite situation.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by scarface74 on Sunday April 05, 2020 @07:33PM (#22789639)
I’ve never worked in a large company where I would be doing everything from front end, middle tier, databases, CI/CD design, creating cloud networking infrastructure, dealing with vendors, designing operations, and talking with customers in the course of a month. This was me last month. Admittedly front end design is a major weakness of mine even though I do know JS well.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by barrkel on Sunday April 05, 2020 @04:52PM (#22788622)
I've worked at both. I agree I wouldn't discard.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by spottybanana on Sunday April 05, 2020 @01:21PM (#22786893)
Might or might not, in my experience in about any team it is usually some of the people really understand the system, can develop etc. Then there are couple ones that mostly just slack off and enjoy the salary and benefits. Maybe even smart but just not willing to put in the effort. For outside interviewer it might be very difficult to tell which one the interviewer is talking to, both might have very similar CV.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by s1k3s on Sunday April 05, 2020 @11:15AM (#22786042)
What makes one a good programmer for a startup? Wouldn't it make sense to have them as experienced as possible (i.e. worked at xyz)?
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by cosmodisk on Sunday April 05, 2020 @11:47AM (#22786232)
If one has business sense. Understands that projects can't run forever and they have to be either completed or killed by a certain date.Has a concept of cashflow. Isn't arrogant with ' the customer should know better' or 'Why would anyone do that?'. Knows the balance between 'this needs to be improved long term' and 'we need sales today' and how to keep both running. Doesn't get involved in idiotic keyboard wars about spaces vs tabs,etc.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by s1k3s on Sunday April 05, 2020 @12:23PM (#22786481)
Agree, didn't think of a lot of the points you make. However from my experience, "this needs to be improved long term" will stay exactly as is, forever, in favor of business requirements and it will be improved only when the business absolutely demands it to be.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by Benjammer on Sunday April 05, 2020 @12:33PM (#22786539)
"this needs to be improved long term" isn't really something you can put on a quarterly roadmap though. I think a good startup engineer knows how to keep track of these things themselves, and knows when and how hard to push on project leaders to get something done about it. Imo, most of the "UGH why doesn't the business side care about this!?" is really a lot of engineers failing to properly communicate in business-speak with the rest of the company. If we can barely explain the bounds of what "technical debt" means and how we handle it to ourselves within our domain in software, how can we possibly expect people involved with business requirements and money numbers to ever meaningfully understand this concept?
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by ratww on Sunday April 05, 2020 @12:07PM (#22786375)
I'd argue that not all experience is equal. Sometimes developers with deep big-company experience have a skillset and habits that is great for big-company but terrible for a startup environment. The opposite is also true.

Plus all the things @cosmodisk said on the sibling comment.

Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by red_admiral on Sunday April 05, 2020 @01:42PM (#22787022)
Spolsky's "smart and gets things done" still sounds like wise advice to me.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by streetcat1 on Sunday April 05, 2020 @12:46PM (#22786625)
No. It depends on where their experience lies and the balance of their skills.

For a startup, you want wide and somewhat shallow experience. Since everything is an experiment, you want to crank out features and see what sticks.

I.e. you want a programmer that can do some UI / some app logic / some data science / some database / some infra/ops, (Not unlike a special forces person).

If you come from a big company, most roles are very specific / very deep - for example, a person works for 2 years on a file system kernel.

Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by scarface74 on Sunday April 05, 2020 @07:36PM (#22789653)
Except for UI - which I avoid like the plague - this describes me. UI is the easiest thing to outsource or get temporary contract labor or a boot camp grad to design to spec.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by streetcat1 on Sunday April 05, 2020 @09:55PM (#22790284)
The problem with outsourcing in the early stages (MVP), is the speed of delivery. If you outsource it to a temp contract you are introducing a weak link in your delivery pipeline.

In addition, for your customers, the UI IS the product. Especially for the CxO level. So most of the "go/no go" decisions will be done based on the quality of the demo UI.

Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by scarface74 on Monday April 06, 2020 @12:19AM (#22790880)
I’ve never worked at an early stage startup. For the last decade, I have been hired at four companies after they had found product/market fit, they “moved fast and broke things” and saw their velocity slow to a crawl because what got them here won’t get them there. (I never fault a company for having a horrible architecture if it got them off the ground, they got funding and survived to get to the point they are (see Twitter).

They needed to hire people to mentor and to help them implement better processes but at the same time being a hands on developer.

But, I have seen plenty of times where the company had an in house designer to design mockups of the UI and hire either a contractor that worked on site or a junior boot camp grad that knew $frontend_framework_of_the_week to save the heavy lifting for the senior devs/FTEs.

On one hand it seems like competent front end developers who can do “good enough” front end development and design are a dime a dozen and you can pay them peanuts. On the other hand, while I know HTML/CSS well enough to do some ugly internal site and I know JS well, I could never go from empty git repo to a well designed single page app on the front end. There is some type of mental barrier when it comes to me being a modern front end developer.

But if you give me a budget, time, and admin credentials to an AWS account, I can go from empty repo, no infrastructure to a fully baked backend solution with a full network infrastructure, database, cache, CI/CD solution easily (been there done that).

Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by bdcravens on Sunday April 05, 2020 @02:40PM (#22787456)
In a startup you need to wear many hats. At a large company you may have had a specific role ("front-end developer", "database administrator", etc). In a startup you don't have the luxury of not-my-jobism. Experience is of course great, so long as you have breadth.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by api on Sunday April 05, 2020 @10:45AM (#22785836)
I still often see "worked at google" or variations as a credential.
Re:Mistakes That Kill Startups (2006) by scarface74 on Sunday April 05, 2020 @07:37PM (#22789663)
If I were hiring for a startup. I would avoid someone who worked at Google. I would want someone who is wide not deep and could handle the stress and juggling that is part of a small company.

Google seems to have more “smart people” (tm) who don’t “get things done”.