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Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by covid_stassi on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:25PM (#22751949)
Anonymous new profile, my apologies. My partner wasn't comfortable with me saying this stuff in a public way. They work in the emergency department of a hospital in North America.

It's not just that they'll be fired if they speak out...

The hospitals are also threatening to withhold worker's compensation payouts if a staff member is caught using anything brought from home, even if it's real, name brand equipment. Got some N95s leftover from that home improvement project? Leave them at home and use this surgical mask instead (still better than nothing, to be fair). They are asking staff members to inform on other staff. To be clear: these policies were in effect for an area with coughing COVID patients. They do put surgical masks on the patients, which is very helpful, but I'm livid that they then ask the nurses to NOT use N95s in this scenario.

They are also undertaking dubious re-use and cleaning procedures that are not scientifically proven. For example, masks (both surgical and N95s, which are only for workers doing things like intubation) are being used for an entire day (also not correct usage) and then placed in paper folders for a week. At the end of the week, the masks are deemed 'clean' and reused by the same staff member. Kind of like a mask for each day of the week. There is not strong scientific evidence this is an effective or safe procedure. These procedures might work, but there isn't testing proving that fact.

I understand hospitals are in a bind here. There are simply not enough masks available (both surgical and N95) in the world. If the hospitals admit their ad-hoc procedures are ineffective they risk short term mutiny in their staff ranks. They also risk long term litigation by admitting they can't protect staff. Unfortunately their approach of 'clamp down hard on dissent' is preventing the real message from being broadcast loudly enough: It should be blindingly clear we need a crash program to ramp domestic PPE manufacturing by an order of magnitude (or two).

As an aside, please call your senators and representatives and ask them to force the Trump administration to use the DPA to bring more PPE capacity online. It's really too late now, but better late than never. We'll need to establish permanent manufacturing capacity for this anyways so we never get caught out like again.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by PenelopeHopkins on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:49PM (#22752213)
To echo OP's story (and anonymity). My partner is physician and surgical resident in the USA. My partner was told to either remove their N95 mask before doing a procedure on the the mouth of a febrile patient, or go home. My partner left, and now their job is at risk. My partner received several very direct (always careful to not make a paper trail) follow up calls from administrators and was given an ultimatum to either comply with the hospital's ludicrous PPE policy or be disciplined and/or fired. Several of our friends (some of which are pregnant!) are in an even worse situation working in the ICU and have been given the same ultimatum. As you'd expect, the rest of the hospital staff is appalled and are supportive, however, everyone is afraid to say anything.

For those of you who are unfamiliar to how medical training works in the US, residents have _no_ power. If they quit, they cannot become board certified, and effectively cannot practice in any capacity. 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 4-7 years of resident training.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by Nuzzerino on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @06:58PM (#22754391)
That's why you should relocate to a state with a one-party-consent wiretapping law. New York happens to be one of those.
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by op03 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:31PM (#22752021)
What is the rationale for not being allowed to bring stuff from home?
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by strongholding on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:14PM (#22752510)
MD in an American hospital here. New account for obvious reasons.

I was disciplined for bringing in a reusable respirator. The reason given was that it made other staff believe the health system wasn't doing enough to protect employees and creating extra fear. And yes, I was threatened with termination in the middle of this crisis.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by op03 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:52PM (#22752890)
Whatever the rationale, how they communicated and dealt with you is were things stink.

It needs to be addressed or it will repeat in some other context. Right thing to do is get cool heads in mgmt to handle the hot heads in mgmt. Small changes in comms can prevents such distracting/harmful escalations. And experienced managers/admins will know how to make it happen.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by geerlingguy on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:36PM (#22752079)
My guess: litigation risk, and institutional fear of any kind of potential lawsuits.

I think I remember someone who was a new-ish doctor mentioning that part of the reason some doctors' salaries were so high was they had to basically pour money into malpractice insurance.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by thinkharderdev on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:44PM (#22752171)
Don't really know but my guess is that it is a combination of:

1. Regulations against using non-approved medical equipment of unknown provenance. 2. A worry about health care workers who don't have stuff they can bring from home. It's not as if you can go about and buy an N95 mask right now. If some of the healthcare workers have respirators that they have lying around at home and some don't then it could cause friction on the unit.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by joshstrange on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:56PM (#22752306)
This comment is not directed towards you as much as the hospitals

1. All regulations are pretty far out the window at this point, nurses are already reusing single-use items all over the place.

2. Oh so since we can't protect everyone we can't protect anyone?

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by thinkharderdev on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:26PM (#22752623)
I agree in general, especially on point 1. If it's just an issue of regulations then that is insane.

On the second point I would actually be more sympathetic to their position (though probably not enough to actually ban employees from doing it). Humans are funny and if some people on a unit have better equipment than others it can certainly cause some interpersonal tension that over-stressed hospitals can't deal with right now.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by joshstrange on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @04:13PM (#22753071)
It would be a different story if hospitals were upfront and honest. They are currently being neither.

They should be protecting the people who can actually help save other people even if they can't protect everyone. Should nurses in KY stop wearing masks because nurses in NY are out? I understand you point on "interpersonal tension" but people need to get over it right now and protect themselves in whatever way possible even if that means I walk into a hospital and see a nurse with a bandana over their face (already happening in some hospitals AND part of the CDC "Strategies for Optimizing the Supply of Facemasks" [0] -- Read the "HCP use of homemade masks" section)

[0] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/ppe-strategy/f...

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by covid_stassi on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:35PM (#22752069)
I think officially it is that they don't know what the employees are bringing from home. They could be bringing some knockoff mask that offers very little protection. But come on, you can't use a mask with 3M stamped on it that you bought at Home Depot?

I'll also speculate that it could create friction between staff - How come you get protect and I don't? It could be a problem.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by quicklyfrozen on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:39PM (#22752118)
If you allow it, then it could also be seen as a tacit acknowledgement that n95 masks are really the proper equipment. Logical, in a terrible way.
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by segmondy on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @03:27PM (#22752639)
that's not it. it's because other staff members don't have protection and demand for one when they see someone protecting themselves.
Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by lonelappde on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:40PM (#22752125)
> They also risk long term litigation by admitting they can't protect staff.

Actually failing to protect staff seems a worse litigation risk.

Re:Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out... by covid_stassi on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @02:56PM (#22752313)
You would think so, but with enough lawyers, I think the hospital could claim it just didn't know what the risks were (does anyone, really) and made a good faith effort to protect the staff. Honestly I feel for the administrators too. I'm sure they don't relish choosing between a bunch of terrible options. The real beef I have is with the federal government. This attitude towards the states of 'you should be trying to get this stuff yourselves' is ridiculous. In the face of scarce resources there is only prioritization of the resources and working to increase overall capacity. Letting the states get in bidding wars ensures masks go to the richest states, not the states where the need is greatest.