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Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by jacquesm on Monday March 30, 2020 @02:43AM (#22725772)
> Being able to hold a paint brush is a very different skill level than painting a portrait.

Painful given some past threads on this subject.

Other than that: spot on.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by mistermann on Monday March 30, 2020 @06:39AM (#22726782)
Do you believe that we can infer useful information about ventilators from this? I'm not seeing much relevance to this conversation.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by jacquesm on Monday March 30, 2020 @02:05PM (#22730496)
I can infer some useful information about you from this thread. It is that you actually don't give a damn but you love arguing, the more the merrier and no matter whether or not you stray far off-topic, you'll be happy because that gives you yet another thing you can argue about.

If there is relevance to this conversation in the 10,000 or so words that you have spent on this thread then I fail to see it, so I really don't know what this particular comment is trying to achieve other than that it has me considering whether I shouldn't just plain give up on HN.

Don Hopkins has it right, sealioning is the perfect term to describe what you are doing and it is a destructive thing on something as fragile as this forum because it narrowly fits the guidelines and yet makes it impossible to have a normal conversation. It's the online version of passive aggressive belligerence with a veneer of sincerity on top.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by DonHopkins on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:05AM (#22735261)
That inference is 100% consistent with his past behavior as I've experienced it.

His arguments are incoherent, rambling, and and focused on nothing but derailing the conversation and wasting everyone's time. He perfectly fits the definition of "sealioning". He even admits he knows what it is and is familiar with the web comic that coined the term, then in the same post, he continues to behave as if he's working directly off the wikipedia definition, acting out its every point and symptom, as if it were his playbook.

When confronted with arguments that directly address his points, he complains and runs away and refuses to respond to them. His "concern" for the topic and interest in having a conversation is totally insincere. His only goal is to waste time. Only when he can waste time and divert the conversation away from the point, does he bother to reply. But once there is no way out but to confront the glaring contradictions in what he wrote, his suddenly disappears and has no more to say.

It's supremely ironic and proves he's a troll with absolutely no sense of self-awareness, when he says things like "I'm not seeing much relevance to this conversation", after spending so much time and energy trying to derail the conversation with irrelevant bullshit. That should serve as a warning and warning sign to anyone tempted to engage him in conversation, or take anything he says seriously.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by omar_a1 on Monday March 30, 2020 @06:40PM (#22732935)
I've been making liberal use of the flag button for the trolling comments once I picked up on the pattern.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by jacquesm on Monday March 30, 2020 @07:03PM (#22733071)
Ditto.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by omar_a1 on Monday March 30, 2020 @08:04PM (#22733548)
On the bright side, I learned the term "sealioning" today, so thanks for that! :D
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by DonHopkins on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:43AM (#22735408)
Sealioning is a Gamergate tactic, so it's quite possible he's one of those disruptive children, and that's where he learned it from. He's certainly doing it regularly and systematically and by the book, as if it's a job he's been trained to do, he has a checklist of talking points and techniques, and is being paid for his time, number of posts, and number of words.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning

Another tactic you can see him practicing, which we're all familiar with coming out of the White House, is psychological projection. Trolls like misterman are fully aware they're sealioning, know all the terminology because they study and emulate it, and they love to throw around and misuse terms like that themselves, to attack other sincere people for doing what they're actually maliciously doing themselves, to make it seem like it's just "both sides", which it's not.

It's not just an internet thing. Here's an example of how racists sealion and project in real life:

https://medium.com/@codeGrit/a-story-about-sealions-gamergat...

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by DonHopkins on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @02:10AM (#22735272)
Thank you! His pattern of sealioning is outrageously obvious and blatantly unoriginal and formulaic. It's as if he has a dog-eared copy of "Sealioning for Dummies" marked up with yellow highter pen and bookmarked with post-it pads, that he's following step by step, page by page, checking off each technique and trick as he tries it.

Sealioning is related to the Gish Gallop, to which there are some countermeasures that work (beyond systematically flagging his post every time he does it, which is the least we all can do to protect the community).

The approach that worked for me, and shut him up cold in his steps and made him suddenly retreat, is to be very calm and structured about your replies, and not let him derail you, which is something that we can all cooperate together on, and support each other by doing together as a tag team.

Carefully chose and enumerate your questions, and repeat them when he doesn't answer them, but don't get distracted by his off-topic diversions, or his passive aggressive belligerence with a veneer of sincerity on top. His pseudo-intellectualism and pretend-open-mindedness and saccharine-sincerity is all just an act, and you don't owe him the level of courtesy that he is pretending to extend to you and mocking you with. I can practically see him laughing to himself (and his Gamergate veteran buddies) behind the keyboard every time he thinks he's fooled anyone into taking him seriously, because he certainly doesn't believe what he says.

Just calmly point out every time he ignores one of your questions or somebody else's questions, or tries to derail the conversation. Keep relentlessly pushing him back onto the topic, and never let him derail you. When I did that, he was mortified and childishly complained that I was not the boss of him, and that I could not tell him what to do, or force him to answer my questions, then he immediately lost interest and fled without another word, because the last thing he actually wanted to to was to stay on topic and answer the questions I would not stop asking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

Technique and counter measures

During a Gish gallop, a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of many specious arguments, half-truths, and misrepresentations in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of a formal debate.[3][4] In practice, each point raised by the "Gish galloper" takes considerably more time to refute or fact-check than it did to state in the first place.[5] The technique wastes an opponent's time and may cast doubt on the opponent's debating ability for an audience unfamiliar with the technique, especially if no independent fact-checking is involved[6] or if the audience has limited knowledge of the topics.

Generally, it is more difficult to use the Gish gallop in a structured debate than in a free-form one.[7] If a debater is familiar with an opponent who is known to use the Gish gallop, the technique may be countered by pre-empting and refuting the opponent's commonly used arguments first, before the opponent has an opportunity to launch into a Gish gallop.[8]

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Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by DonHopkins on Tuesday March 31, 2020 @04:26AM (#22735812)
I agree. And he'll be very easy to recognize when he tries to create another sockpuppet account to troll with after he's banned, so we'll just flag that one too when we recognize him trying again.