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Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by taeric on Saturday March 21, 2020 @11:51AM (#22647352)
But why? I have pushed my air quality hypothesis. What other reasons are there.

And you can't just claim social distancing. Unless they have shut down their trains, where people are literally packed in, that just doesn't fly. (So, have they?)

Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by craftinator on Saturday March 21, 2020 @04:19PM (#22649681)
There are a number of thoughts I have, but I'm puzzled as well. My first explanation is that the Japanese are simply more hyegeinic than most other countries I've been to. Fastidious is the word that comes to mind. They wash hands often, wear clean clothes, wear masks or stay home when sick, don't shake hands or touch often.

Second explanation that comes to mind is that they tend to be just healthier than other countries. They have low obesity, exercise correctly and routinely, walk and ride bikes to get where they go, and do all of this even when elderly. The counterpoint to this is that they have a really high smoking population.

Source: I lived there for two years.

Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by taeric on Saturday March 21, 2020 @05:18PM (#22650219)
The first one could explain why it isn't spreading there. Without testing, hard to know if that is accurate. Reports from other threads supports that it is there, but not severe cases. (Sadly, anecdotes...)

Second is also tougher to square. The risk pool is supposedly older people, per reports from Italy. But, that doesn't seem to square with age profiles of Japanese. So??

Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by brigandish on Saturday March 21, 2020 @11:20PM (#22652433)
One difference could be that old people in Japan are all too often living a solitary existence or not in frequent touch with their family. My wife brought this up last night as I was discussing this thread with her and out of everything I've seen, read, and considered, this seems to be the one thing that could stop it - they were already socially distancing the most vulnerable group.

Still, there's a long way to go for this thing.

Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by MikeAmelung on Saturday March 21, 2020 @12:08PM (#22647480)
Couple of possibilities I've been thinking about:

The virus has been in Italy for a lot longer than they think, and they get close to each other/have actual contact a lot (I don't know if that's actually true, I've never been to Italy)

Maybe they mostly have a particular mutation that is more deadly/infectious

Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by brigandish on Saturday March 21, 2020 @12:50PM (#22647830)
Don't discount the possibility that figures are being massaged in various ways. One is the obvious lack of widespread testing. Another is the reports of people with symptoms being turned away. Then there are the kodokushi[0] numbers which are a clue to how the government already deals with uncomfortable mortality figures - let alone those kudokushi who may die because of the virus - and a over a million deaths a year (I don't know the monthly totals) in which to hide a few hundred (initially) deaths, especially while still in flu season.

In short, I trust the figures here about one step more than ones coming out of China.

[0] https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/06/kodokushi-in-agi...

Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by angrais on Saturday March 21, 2020 @08:31PM (#22651542)
When saying kodokushi, why not just say "old people that die alone"?
Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by brigandish on Saturday March 21, 2020 @11:16PM (#22652407)
Because having a special term for something implies its widespread nature.
Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by taeric on Saturday March 21, 2020 @01:14PM (#22648001)
I can't square that it has been in Italy substantially longer than Japan. Nor that Italians touch each other more than Japanese. Have you ever seen the videos of commuter trains in Japan?

So, possible, but seems not as likely to be the explanation.

Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by taeric on Saturday March 21, 2020 @01:00PM (#22647896)
Relying on a particular mutation seems less plausible than difference in air quality exposure that can be measured today.
Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by fspeech on Saturday March 21, 2020 @03:27PM (#22649185)
Don't they wear masks on trains?
Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by taeric on Saturday March 21, 2020 @03:35PM (#22649259)
Have you seen the trains? No amount of mask would stop some spread there.
Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by fspeech on Saturday March 21, 2020 @05:01PM (#22650068)
Why isn't that the evidence that mask is effective?
Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by taeric on Saturday March 21, 2020 @05:11PM (#22650152)
It would need testing to show they don't have a prevalence of "mild" cases. Not to mention we should have numbers on how often they wear masks. Last I saw, it was not everyone that did that.

Edit for reference: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E7kor5nHtZQ

Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by fspeech on Saturday March 21, 2020 @05:33PM (#22650350)
80% compliance would eliminate flu outbreaks and flu is upper respiratory. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30229968

The New Yorker article we are supposedly discussing literally says the coronavirus is not very efficient even in hospital settings.

I am familiar with crowded trains in East Asia. Your video does not have time marker so I assume it is not taken recently.

Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by brigandish on Sunday March 22, 2020 @10:55AM (#22655313)
People don't wear N95 masks here, they wear cheap masks you can pick up in any drug store for just a few coins.

How would an entire country obtain N95 masks and training and proper fitting (it's done by trained fitters) and dispose of them properly, and do that daily? (if not more often)

Every time I go out I see the cheapo ones left in the street because there's a vague notion they should be disposed of "properly" so I don't see this idea working at all.

Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by fspeech on Sunday March 22, 2020 @01:48PM (#22656885)
Public mask wearing prevents the wearer from emitting droplets. You don't need n95 for that. Also please read the article in discussion, this virus is not that easy to transmit, even for hospital workers.
Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by brigandish on Sunday March 22, 2020 @08:09PM (#22660041)
How does an R0 greater than 1 in every country and population the virus is present in square with "this virus is not that easy to transmit"?

I can't do it.

> read the article

Okay, maybe they can square it:

> Luckily, methods were found that protected all the new health-care workers: none—zero—were infected.

> But those methods were Draconian. As the city was locked down and cut off from outside visitors, health-care workers seeing at-risk patients were housed away from their families. They wore full-body protective gear, including goggles, complete head coverings, N95 particle-filtering masks, and hazmat-style suits.

They failed, it was probably the use of "Draconian" that let them down.

I also read the paper you provided, not just the abstract, and it spends a lot of its time talking about N95 masks. Here is from a part it spends on facemasks:

> whereas for the facemasks the efficiency can vary from 10% to 90% (Guha et al., 2017)

Have you read Guha's paper? I've got it here. I have so many problems with someone relying on that paper beyond its narrow applicable scope. I wonder if they've ever worn a mask. I digress.

Additionally (we're back to the paper you shared), you should count how many times "except the low-filtration adult surgical mask" or some combination of those words following except comes up in that paper.

It's also a model and not a study. Let me know when there's a study that shows masks work (the Guha paper mentioned is a study, in a lab, not using people or even a model of a face), in use by the general public, in the kind of settings they wear them, and it's the kind of masks they usually wear.

Re:Keeping the coronavirus from infecting healthcare workers by taeric on Saturday March 21, 2020 @07:53PM (#22651320)
I assume not recent either. If there is a recent one, I'm interested.

I posted that as evidence masks have not always been worn by everyone.

I'm confused on your 80% compliance number. Are you saying Japanese get 80% compliance on things, and by extension don't have flu outbreaks?