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Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by Aunche on Thursday March 05, 2020 @12:10PM (#22495553)
> millions of people lack the basic material resources needed to fulfill anything close to their potential

There is a limited amount of capital in the world. Distributing it now might help those at home, but it does not help the billion people who still lack electricity. There simply is not enough capital in the world to build trillions of dollars worth of infrastructure for free. Investment is a much better vehicle for distribution than UBI as it also creates wealth.

Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by danenania on Thursday March 05, 2020 @12:25PM (#22495709)
"There is a limited amount of capital in the world."

You've already lost me. This is provably false, as any programmer should know: if you sit down and code something useful today, you've just increased the amount of capital in the world. Out of thin air. A carpenter who buys a bunch of lumber and turns it into a thousand-dollar piece of furniture does the same. The more people can learn to add value to the world, and the more value they can add, the bigger the total pie of wealth can grow.

Investment distributes wealth primarily from the elite to the slightly-less elite. It doesn't break the cycle of poverty and immediate survival focus that prevents millions and millions of potential Einsteins or Feynmans or Musks from doing anything with their lives other than scraping by.

Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by Aunche on Thursday March 05, 2020 @12:37PM (#22495869)
I mean that there isn't enough capital to distribute to everyone in the world, not that it's fixed forever. You can grow it. That's my point. It's better to increase capital than redistribute it.

> Investment distributes wealth primarily from the elite to the slightly-less elite.

If you've seen how China changed in the last couple decades, you'd see how this obviously isn't true. Basically all electronics are manufactured in a developing Asian country by the children of subsidence farmers.

Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by danenania on Thursday March 05, 2020 @12:55PM (#22496085)
Yeah, so now instead of barely getting by on subsistence farming, they barely get by working 16 hour shifts in dangerous conditions with no rights. While the workers may be mostly better off than they were before, they still have to spend almost all their time and energy on meeting the basic needs of survival. The people who benefitted by far the most from all that investment were the owners, executives, and shareholders of the companies that run the factories. So I would say that distribution of capital was still quite lacking in terms of where it could have the most leverage to increase opportunity.
Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by bob33212 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:19PM (#22496346)
The book Sapiens has a similar message. The children of farmers who move to textile manufacturing were worse off than their parents in the 1800s. But the great great grandchildren of those people have material wealth greater than upperclass people in the 1800s when comparing clothes, entertainment, transportation, health care. And none of them would prefer to live as an 1800s farmer today.
Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by WalterBright on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:46PM (#22498008)
Keep in mind what the factories were producing - it was not luxury goods for the wealthy. It was textiles, clothing, pots, pans, all sorts of things that made life better for ordinary people.

This, in turn, is what made it possible for us today to enjoy a high standard of living unimaginable back then.

Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by Aunche on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:08PM (#22496228)
People aren't so stupid that they'd do something that completely against their best interests. If you're a subsidence farmer and get sick, you have no means of making enough money to see a doctor. Historically, people didn't care about leisure until they accomplished stability.
Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by claudiawerner on Thursday March 05, 2020 @01:21PM (#22496365)
>People aren't so stupid that they'd do something that completely against their best interests.

The world is actually full of such examples. There's quite a bit of work done in psychology and sociology as to why this happens. Often, the move from, for example substinence farming to other jobs is a kind of throffer - and so it was, historically documented, in the 16th and 17th centuries in England, too with the move from rural cottage industry to wide-scale factory production.

Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by Aunche on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:17PM (#22497022)
> in the 16th and 17th centuries in England, too with the move from rural cottage industry to wide-scale factory production.

The industrial revolution started in the late 18th century. Keep in mind that the population was booming then, so there wasn't enough space on the cottage to support the same standard of living.

I feel like the concept of a idyllic peasant is the modern iteration of the "noble savage." For complex decisions, you indeed run into the paradox of choice and other strange psychological phenomena. However, choice between sacrificing time in order to accumulate capital is an easy one, as this has been done billions of times. You need extraordinary evidence to prove otherwise.

Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by claudiawerner on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:58PM (#22497495)
While the move to factories was only being completed by the end of the 18th century, the process had started much earlier, in laying the groundwork for the creation of industry, from the enclosures to the transformation of the peasantry to farmers who rent their land (rather than tithes to their lord). The market for land leases, necessary for the creation of the English capitalist class, flourished in the 16th and 17th centuries.

>However, choice between sacrificing time in order to accumulate capital is an easy one, as this has been done billions of times.

It's curious why so much land had to be expropriated forcefully if it were such an obvious choice to the modern-day noble savages - and even moreso when one considers modern union activity and intense revolts against the increasing duration and intensity of the working day in America, and to no lesser extent other countries which did not have the privilege of being so readily acquainted with capital. These are no edge cases either. The largest debate in the literature being the question of why the majority does not rise up against the unfair conditions implemented by a minority. Whether you subscribe to the false consciousness solution or the capability solution, both allow you to say that the "rational choice" of not rising up (or accumulating capital) is simply an element of playing the game. The only difference between the theories turns on the point of whether the players know it's a game or not.

Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by ilammy on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:23PM (#22497092)
> It's better to increase capital than redistribute it.

Consider the notion of leverage where both A and B can increase their capital more in absolute value if some part of A's significant capital is redistributed to poorer B. UBI just takes risk out of this equation so A does not have to lend to B in order for this to happen. Though yeah, this makes A poorer in absolute value than they would have been without this sneaky taxation (= involuntary expropriation of money).

Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by Aunche on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:31PM (#22497845)
> UBI just takes risk out of this equation so A does not have to lend to B in order for this to happen.

For society, the risk is that A is more efficient at investing money than a blind redistribution scheme. That's a multi-trillion dollar gamble.

Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by edmundsauto on Thursday March 05, 2020 @04:59PM (#22498807)
Isn't it a case of investment efficiency versus efficacy? If all you care about is capital increasing capital, then efficiency is a good measure. If you care about how the increase in capital impacts peoples lives, then giving $1 to a billionaire is less effective than someone on minimum wage.
Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by Joeri on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:08PM (#22496913)
UBI doesn’t get stuffed under the mattress, it gets spent, buying electricity, funding investment into electricity networks.

Give money to the poor and most of it will end up back at the rich. It doesn’t work as well trickling down.

Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by Aunche on Thursday March 05, 2020 @04:12PM (#22498323)
Money will eventually circulate everywhere, but it's a matter of efficiency. This is an immense simplification, but to illustrate the intuition, consider 2 options:

1. Apple spends $10 million dollars to build a factory in a developing country. This creates 2,000 jobs over a couple years. These people can finally afford to see a doctor and heat up their homes during the winter.

2. Apple gets taxed $10 million that funds 1000 people's UBI. Their lives are somewhat less stressful. There is a higher demand for Iphones, so Apple can charge a bit more money for them. After a decade, they are able to open an additional factory. However, within that decade, 100 people in that developing country died of a disease that would be easily cured with medicine had they had they been able to work at the factory 10 years ago.

Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by WalterBright on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:47PM (#22498020)
The money to pay for UBI doesn't come from a mattress, either. It comes out of money that was invested.
Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by EthanHeilman on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:24PM (#22497761)
Trickle up economics?
Re:People kept working, became healthier while on basic inco... by zepto on Thursday March 05, 2020 @02:59PM (#22497512)
Since trickling down doesn’t work, if UBI doesn’t work either, we need a new proposal.