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Re:To get good, go after the metagame by ggambetta on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @11:36AM (#22414562)
> Mastering the fundamentals will make you 'good' to a level that very few people ever reach.

Can you clarify this? Is this because most people don't care about mastering the fundamentals in the first place? I can't tell whether I'm missing something and the idea is more complex, or that's what you're saying.

Re:To get good, go after the metagame by Proziam on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @11:46AM (#22414663)
In my experience it comes down to two things:

1. People think they already have the fundamentals 'down'

2. Actually mastering the fundamentals can be boring and make a game feel like work (which, if you don't truly enjoy pushing the limits in a game, it is.)

A totally random example from League of Legends. 99% of players go into game after game and literally never review their previous games. They will spam games but literally never go into a custom game to practice last hitting. Or, they'll play a different champion every game, instead of putting in the repetition required to fully comprehend all the matchups they will find themselves in.

In short, very few players think of their most time spent practicing fundamentals as a valuable investment. Related, most players never even learn what the fundamentals are because revealing them takes a lot of effort.

For example, Starcraft is a game largely driven by economy or 'macro' rather than ultra-fast reflexes. However, the importance of macro is basically hidden from novice players. Their in-game experience is 'the other player always has more stuff than I do!' which they often attribute to build-order or other game decisions. It actually takes a while before a player really gets in tune with the idea that they need to be deploying resources ASAP and balancing the resources they acquire with the unit composition they are going to have in the next [insert window of time].

Re:To get good, go after the metagame by blattimwind on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @12:39PM (#22415219)
> 2. Actually mastering the fundamentals can be boring and make a game feel like work (which, if you don't truly enjoy pushing the limits in a game, it is.)

3. Mastering the fundamentals can just be hard. E.g. movement and aim in most first-person shooters. Mastering these fundamentals can be hard to the point of even professional players having significant gaps, e.g. players that are known to have excellent movement but lackluster aim, or vice versa.

Re:To get good, go after the metagame by Proziam on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @10:19PM (#22419980)
Things like aim/movement fall into the grey area between mechanics and fundamentals.

Raw aim = mechanics.

Crosshair placement = fundamentals.

Basic Movement = mechanics.

Pathing = fundamentals.

You're absolutely right about things just being hard though. The gaps between even professional players can be huge in one area and nonexistent in another. Once you take that and apply it at the team level, it's easy to understand why a player could shine among a certain group, and do terribly with another, even if both groups were of very similar 'skill.'

Re:To get good, go after the metagame by blackandblue on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @12:07PM (#22414883)
learning so much from you guys lol not even a gamer :) now i think i am going to try to invest into a camera to record my piano practices. i wonder if that would help me get better...
Re:To get good, go after the metagame by Spellman on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:47PM (#22417841)
Yup. It could.

However, the key isn't necessarily video recordings. It's deliberately practicing individual things you are bad at in isolation until you are good at them.

We need to record LoL and StarCraft games because it's tough to pause and redo something in the middle of a match. Similarly recording baseball swings or people dancing or swimming is useful for reviewing the complete action.

But when you practice piano, you can pause and redo a measure or line until you get it right, then slowly reincorporate it as part of the whole piece.

The WORST thing you can do is keep playing and think "I'll fix that later." Because inevitably you'll play a piece again, probably do the same mistake, and now you're actually practicing the mistake and ingraining it into your memory.

A video recording and reviewing it of a whole piece can help you go back and isolate your mistakes though. But it's just a tool for the goal of identifying and fixing mistakes.

Re:To get good, go after the metagame by Spooky23 on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @02:38PM (#22416548)
It absolutely would.

We used an iPad to record swings of our little leaguers and it made a huge difference for them.

It helps because it’s easier to see what is happening vs hearing it. One example that we would see is kids dropping the back shoulder when they swing. Once they see it, they correct.

Re:To get good, go after the metagame by hnick on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @10:10PM (#22419930)
Your brain is great at filling in the blanks in the moment, but the camera never lies :)

My wife had trouble with a certain move in dog agility until she saw herself do it on video and it was clear what was wrong.

Re:To get good, go after the metagame by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @12:37PM (#22415197)
It would! If you can get past how embarrassing it is to watch yourself play, which I've never been able to do. So many mistakes…
Re:To get good, go after the metagame by madhadron on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @03:50PM (#22417279)
Similar advice in music. Record your practice sessions. Listen. Wince. Pick out targeted things to fix. Drill. Record again. Comfort yourself that at least that targeted thing is less painful. Repeat.
Re:To get good, go after the metagame by theremightbe on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @02:58PM (#22416775)
And it can be so tempting to delete them immediately because the videos are embarrassing. But you'll be so happy to have them in a few years to look back on how you've improved!
Re:To get good, go after the metagame by city41 on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @03:10PM (#22416917)
I also think fighting games are a good example. Most beginners gravitate towards the special moves and supers. But basic moves and understanding positioning can elevate your game much more.
Re:To get good, go after the metagame by roel_v on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @07:18PM (#22419023)
This is true of real fighting too...
Re:To get good, go after the metagame by hnick on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @10:11PM (#22419933)
Hands up! Even when you're tired. Especially when you're tired!

I only box casually for fitness but I like that the teacher tries to teach good habits.

Re:To get good, go after the metagame by floatrock on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @01:13PM (#22415586)
How much of this is data-driven? I mean, every shot can (in theory) be digitally logged and analyzed. Is there anyone doing a Moneyball-style player performance data analysis service? I hate to use the term, but an "AI coach"?
Re:To get good, go after the metagame by Proziam on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @01:33PM (#22415808)
Data is getting to be a bigger component, but that was driven primarily by esports betting (another area I've had some experience in, coincidentally). Data, in general, is under-utilized by almost everyone and the few 'real' data folks I've met have the habit of missing the forest for the trees (there's not exactly a tremendous wealth of coaching experience in esports, so the number of folks who could do the coaching and implement/build new tools for that purpose is near-zero).

It's pretty hard to go straight from DATA -> ACTIONABLE COACHING DECISIONS

It's much easier to go from COACHES INTUITION + SUPPORTING DATA -> COACHING DECISION

I'm not aware of any other coach (but there probably is some) that has the technical skills to build the kind of tools that would be required. Bear in mind, most games don't actually give you all the data you'd want to look at. That said, there were a few folks who made a killing in esports betting for a while.

Re:To get good, go after the metagame by drchickensalad on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @11:39AM (#22414595)
Most people consistently make mistakes. They're not really playing to win, and going over all their footage to ensure they have their fundamentals down. It's actually really hard to perfect your fundamentals.
Re:To get good, go after the metagame by jerf on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:30AM (#22424458)
Recent HN post on the topic: https://danluu.com/p95-skill/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22265197

A direct experience report on the same topic from a particular game.

Re:To get good, go after the metagame by gacklesmom on Thursday February 27, 2020 @06:48PM (#22439223)
Literally painful to read. Both in content and formatting. I have no idea how someone can type that much about a kids' game.
Re:To get good, go after the metagame by DelightOne on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @01:00PM (#22415430)
The reward function does not necessarily hit the fundamentals while you do not focus on them.