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Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by DevX101 on Sunday February 23, 2020 @11:21AM (#22397637)
This is one case where it's worth overreacting to. Biological epidemics are the only thing that has had the capacity to kill >50 million people in a year. In my risk classification hierarchy I put pandemics above nuclear war and wayyyy above terrorism. Yet we've spent trillions on the war on terror the past 20 years while there's no coordinated plan in the U.S. for this yet. If there's even a 2% chance of this going pandemic in the U.S. we should be allocating at least a billion with apolitical expert driven policy implementations to prevent spread.

My jaw dropped when I read that the State Dept allowed infected Americans to fly with uninfected persons to the U.S. from Japan against the express recommendations of the CDC. This is what we're dealing with and I'm not optimistic.

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by SpicyLemonZest on Sunday February 23, 2020 @11:29AM (#22397688)
The plans the US already has for a flu pandemic should mostly carry over, no? COVID is probably worse than the seasonal flu, but it's not outside the reasonable range of what a flu pandemic could do.
Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by iends on Sunday February 23, 2020 @01:09PM (#22398421)
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/31/coronavirus-china-trump...

Are you confident in this administrations ability to handle national crisis in light of the funding and personnel cuts mentioned in the above article?

Also, why has the CDC testing so botched thus far?

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by csomar on Sunday February 23, 2020 @12:52PM (#22398285)
> COVID is probably worse than the seasonal flu, but it's not outside the reasonable range of what a flu pandemic could do.

I think the issue is that we don't know yet how bad COVID-19 is. China is hiding stuff and it's not clear what is going on over there. There are also some uncomfortable, if true, things about it: like asymptomatic transmission for 2 weeks and ability to survive on surfaces for 5 days on certain conditions.

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by wool_gather on Sunday February 23, 2020 @01:17PM (#22398486)
Yep. The possibility of continued contagiousness after recovery is also a point of concern: https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-recovered-patients-trac...
Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by jacquesm on Sunday February 23, 2020 @11:41AM (#22397774)
> it's not outside the reasonable range of what a flu pandemic could do.

By about 3-4 orders of magnitude, it is. The flu tends to kill about 60K people annually and most of those are old or very young or already had a compromised immune system. This is with the figures known so far and before there is a vaccine around 2-3%. If left unchecked it would overwhelm available health care capacity pretty quickly.

The Chinese mis-handled this. But it would be a mistake to think that the west is super prepared for something like this compared to China. ICU capacity is limited, test capacity is limited. Our advantages are mostly in more transparent messaging and wealth. Those two will have a big impact on the economic and health care aspects but it may not be enough to drop this down to the level of yet another flu.

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by SpicyLemonZest on Sunday February 23, 2020 @11:50AM (#22397841)
A flu pandemic, in official terminology, is a different and more severe thing than the seasonal flu. The government regularly plans for such outbreaks and isn't afraid to spend a billion dollars when needed; for example, about 5 years ago they preemptively struck against bird flu by obliterating poultry farms at government expense. (And that one didn't even affect humans!)

I don't think you're getting your numbers from an accurate source either. The flu kills a lot more than 6k people by every estimate I've seen.

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by jacquesm on Sunday February 23, 2020 @11:58AM (#22397909)
Sorry, dropped a '0' there. My bad. Edited.

Also, 'pandemic' is just about the geographic spread, not about the mortality or the rate of infection.

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by SpicyLemonZest on Sunday February 23, 2020 @12:08PM (#22397981)
Normally, yes, but the seasonal flu is excluded from the definition so we don't have to say that there's an annual recurring pandemic. When agencies talk about flu pandemic preparations, they're referring to an outbreak so severe that it no longer counts as just the seasonal flu.
Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by jacquesm on Sunday February 23, 2020 @12:29PM (#22398130)
Right. But COVID-19 isn't influenza related so all these flu comparisons are moot as far as I'm concerned. The mortality appears for now - with all the figures that I've seen - to be much higher.

If this thing keeps going like it has for the last couple of weeks then it will make the last H1N1 pandemic look like a walk in the park. The final count on that was 100's of thousands dead in 199 different countries. And it didn't take off nearly as fast as this.

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by DanBC on Sunday February 23, 2020 @01:25PM (#22398528)
But new pathogens always look much worse than they are because we haven't got testing sorted out yet. We test the very serious cases, we don't test the mild cases.
Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by jacquesm on Sunday February 23, 2020 @01:42PM (#22398646)
Yes, that's a good point. Especially valid because there is a very real limit on the number of test kits available. That's also a risk in case of asymptomatic spreading.
Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by snackematician on Sunday February 23, 2020 @01:06PM (#22398402)
> This is with the figures known so far and before there is a vaccine around 2-3%.

There's still a lot of uncertainty around the fatality rate here. For cases outside China, the fatality rate so far is about .2%, compared to about .1% for seasonal influenza. By contrast, in Hubei the reported fatality rate is around 4-5%. (Numbers are as of last week so might be slightly outdated now).

My guess is that the 2-3% estimate is too high. In Hubei there is probably a reporting bias towards counting the more sick cases -- mild or asymptomatic COVID cases are probably being reported less often.

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by jacquesm on Sunday February 23, 2020 @01:31PM (#22398565)
> My guess is that the 2-3% estimate is too high.

I sincerely hope you are right. Those are numbers that when extrapolated to global scale are too horrific to even contemplate.

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by platz on Sunday February 23, 2020 @11:49AM (#22397836)
Do 29 year old doctors typically die from the flu?
Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by jacquesm on Sunday February 23, 2020 @12:30PM (#22398138)
Typically not. But that's not how this stuff works. It is bell curves all the way. So your old, very young and vulnerable people will make up the bulk of those that die but there will be plenty of regular people in the prime of their life that will die as well.
Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by blub on Sunday February 23, 2020 @12:57PM (#22398326)
Any idea why the fatality < 9yo was zero? Surprisingly I haven't seen anyone concerned about kids, which is a tad unusual.
Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by tomohawk on Sunday February 23, 2020 @01:34PM (#22398583)
The 1918 flu particularly affected 20-40 year old healthy people.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-did-1918-flu-kill...

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by jacquesm on Sunday February 23, 2020 @01:41PM (#22398636)
That was an anomaly in many other ways too. Keep in mind that a good chunk of the world was still recovering from WWI. Being exposed to some other disease earlier in life can give a similar effect to vaccination.

This is one of the reasons why HIV spread was not as bad as it could have been in Western Europe where exposure to a disease still gave some benefits many centuries later:

https://www.nature.com/news/2005/050307/full/news050307-15.h...

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by csomar on Sunday February 23, 2020 @12:50PM (#22398275)
Healthy 29 year olds die, regularly, everyday. They are just less likely, though.
Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by SpicyLemonZest on Sunday February 23, 2020 @11:56AM (#22397889)
Yes. Old and very young people are typically more susceptible, but 29 year olds can die from even the seasonal flu, and the potential that young people can be atypically susceptible to a pandemic is well-known.
Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by DanBC on Sunday February 23, 2020 @01:09PM (#22398423)
Health care professionals will tend to be vaccinated against flu, so they are less likely to get it, so you'd be looking at a very small population which is why you don't see more deaths.

If we widen this slightly to healthy but unvaccinated 29 year olds we do start to see deaths from flu.

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by droithomme on Sunday February 23, 2020 @12:56PM (#22398314)
> it's not outside the reasonable range of what a flu pandemic could do

Being both more virulent and having a fatality rate at least 20 times greater means it is definitely outside the range of what flu does.

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by sgt101 on Sunday February 23, 2020 @01:24PM (#22398518)
Nuclear war could kill hundreds of millions in a few hours. Why are you less concerned?
Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by DevX101 on Sunday February 23, 2020 @02:02PM (#22398779)
I think mutually assured destruction works well enough to prevent all out nuclear war between multiple nuclear armed states. Riskiest scenario there is a nuclear state attacking a non-nuclear state that cannot retaliate in kind.

With a pandemic there's no one to negotiate with to come to an armistice.

Re:Past Time to Tell the Public:It Will Probably Go Pandemic... by sgt101 on Sunday February 23, 2020 @02:53PM (#22399110)
Unless there's a miscalculation. Cuba was a very close shave.

With a nuclear war there'd be no negotiations either.