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Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by moe on Saturday February 19, 2011 @09:38AM (#2239070)
LaTeX needs a modern successor.

Yes, the output looks \bf{gorgeous}. But the underlying toolchain and language are past their expiration date. By far.

Tasks as simple as "let's add an image here" or "let's move this to the left a little" frequently turn into hour-long journeys deep down into the guts of a 30 year old codebase.

There is no reason why a modern tool couldn't use the same algorithms to create equally beautiful output. We're not writing raw postscript to talk to our printers anymore either.

\end{rant}

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by wgrover on Saturday February 19, 2011 @11:02AM (#2239222)
Yes! Here's what I want in a modern successor to LaTeX:

- Default output is PDF (DVI is a port on my computer :) )

- Optional DOC/DOCX output (even if it supports just a subset of the program's capabilities)

- Bibliography management built-in (no separate ancient BibTeX)

- Command-line searching and importing from Pubmed / Google Scholar / etc. built-in

- Bibliography styles can be created/edited by normal humans

- Syntax closer to Markdown or reStructuredText, to enhance readability of source file (and maybe shrink the learning curve)

- Program is smaller than 1.6 GB (the size of the default MacTeX distro).

I've played with writing something like this for a while (in Python). The hardest part for me has been dealing with bibliography data - there's always one more weird Pubmed record that breaks my XML parser. Makes me really appreciate Knuth/Lamport/Patashnik and their successors.

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by Quiark on Saturday February 19, 2011 @12:55PM (#2239461)
Some answers: - Default output to PDF has been there for years.

- The base .tex syntax will probably never change, but there is no reason why some tool/plugin/luatex extension couldn't read something else and convert as necessary. I used Deplate and Pandoc for a while.

- AFAIK ConTeXt has some integrated replacement for bibtex

I don't think we need a successor to LaTeX. The base is solid and ready to be built on, especially now with a sane programming language in the core of LuaTeX.

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by chalst on Monday February 21, 2011 @02:23AM (#2244622)
1. Default output is PDF (DVI is a port on my computer :) )

Pdftex (the default Tex engine) supports this. Both Xetex and Luatex do as well, and both of these additionally assume UTF8 as the input encoding and allow you to use True Type and OTF fonts directly.

2. Optional DOC/DOCX output (even if it supports just a subset of the program's capabilities)

igneous4 mentioned Pandoc, which supports RTF as an output format, which is as good as doc/docx for importing text with basic formatting into Word. Pandoc also supports Context. If you want to move the other way, there is docx2tex, which is the best Word to Latex converter.

3. Bibliography management built-in (no separate ancient BibTeX)

I think there's nothing satisfactory here for Latex. You might like to look at Jabref. With Context, the automatic build process makes the invocation of Bibtex invisible. There are many make-like tools for Latex, none are seamless.

4. Command-line searching and importing from Pubmed / Google Scholar / etc. built-in

Again, nothing built-in, but Zotero will do what you want.

5. Bibliography styles can be created/edited by normal humans

Again, nothing adequate here. Try looking at Biblatex. I hand/regex edit .bbl files if I have special bib style needs.

6. Syntax closer to Markdown or reStructuredText, to enhance readability of source file (and maybe shrink the learning curve)

Tex's markup is actually nice. I often wish I could use Texisms when I am editing Markdown, etc. Pandoc allows you to convert between all of these.

7. Program is smaller than 1.6 GB (the size of the default MacTeX distro).

Most of which is fonts. If you have less than voracious font needs, or use TTF/OTF (via. Luatex/Xetex), you can get away with a small fraction of this. Try a more lightweight Texlive installation, and find out what you need.

The hardest part for me has been dealing with bibliography data - No surprise. Bibliography management used to be a relative strength of the Tex family, because the competition was so extremely shoddy. Now it is a weakness; Word 2010 with Endnote is actually very nice here. It's a shame that relatively few Latex hackers appreciate how far behind Tex&co have fallen.

Makes me really appreciate Knuth/Lamport/Patashnik - Knuth is inspirational, his code keeps on rewarding those who read it. Patashnik doesn't get much love from me: he held so many wrong opinions vehemently.

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by igneous4 on Saturday February 19, 2011 @03:21PM (#2239803)
You might just use Pandoc. It happens to use LaTeX behind the scenes to create pdf's, but there's nothing that says it must do so in the future.
Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by chalst on Saturday February 19, 2011 @11:06AM (#2239227)
I prefer Context (built on top of Luatex the same way that Latex 2e is built on top of Tex 3) to Latex, because it allows a much cleaner separation of content from styling, but I think what you say is unfair.

Adding images to Latex documents is straightforward using the core libraries graphicx and putting \includegraphics{FILENAME} at the place you want the graphic. Adjusting placement to left, right, overhand, etc., is done using Tex primitives. It's true that using Tex , Latex and the main Latex packages correctly is not straightforward and that until you have mastered them, you can get into difficulties, but that is also true of Word.

The difference is that it takes longer learn how to produce any sort of ugly document in Latex than in Word, and longer to produce beautiful documents in Word than in Latex.

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by moe on Saturday February 19, 2011 @02:09PM (#2239634)
but I think what you say is unfair

Sorry, but I'll stick to my point. We should stop making excuses for software that was great in its time but is simply not adequate anymore by today's standards.

Almost nothing is straightforward in LaTex, and images aren't either. Placing an image exactly where you want it can become a serious issue - even more so in documents that change and get reflowed all the time.

Yes, LaTex often makes good decisions that require little tweaking. But the moment you disagree with one of its decisions you find yourself in a world of pain.

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by chalst on Saturday February 19, 2011 @03:17PM (#2239794)
Almost nothing is straightforward in LaTex, and images aren't either.

Almost nothing is straightforward in Word, and images aren't either.

Word works very intuitively until you try to achieve fine control of layout. Then if you haven't done things the correct way, where Word's document model is not more intuitive than Latex's, getting the results you want will be painful.

It is true that the distance between Word and Latex in terms of suitability for producing high-quality output has narrowed drastically in the time from, say Word 6.0 to Word 2010. But the Tex family is not software that was great in its time. I use both Word and Tex-based technologies most working days, and I massively prefer to the Tex-based technologies in terms of quality output. It is still the case that for obtaining quality proofs from a .doc/.docx file, professionals use external software such as Adobe Indesign. Indeed, there are workflows that take Word documents and convert them to Tex-based representations for typesetting.

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by moe on Saturday February 19, 2011 @05:47PM (#2240146)
Well, MS Word is the standard straw man that always comes up in these discussions. This is why I said "we should stop making excuses".
Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by chalst on Sunday February 20, 2011 @09:00AM (#2241853)
standard straw man - Care to name a system that isn't a straw man? Word is serious, capable software, and the de-facto standard for document preparation.
Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by moe on Sunday February 20, 2011 @10:13AM (#2241991)
Word is not even playing when output quality is a concern. You named one yourself (Adobe Indesign), the other that I know of would be QuarkXpress.

I don't know a piece of free software that directly competes with LaTeX, the latter has been the de-facto standard for university papers and a small group of book-writers/enthusiasts for about 20 years.

However, pitting LaTeX against Word is about as meaningful as pitting Linux against Windows. You wouldn't excuse the thorny Linux desktop experience with the security track record of windows either - it'd be an apples vs oranges comparison.

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by chalst on Sunday February 20, 2011 @04:16PM (#2243111)
You actually can get decent output quality from Word. It is just that Word becomes inefficient when this is a concern. Indesign is not really aimed at authors, but is for people who want to turn edited copy into publishable proofs.

Open Office exists as part of a free Java-based ecosystem. I couldn't say it is used in any serious publication workflows, but the components are there. Context is aimed at serious publishers, and has strong roots in educational (i.e., not academic) publishing.

Apples vs. oranges: the point of this subthread has been that I thought your statement But the underlying toolchain and language are past their expiration date. By far. and backing this up by talking about how hard "easy" things can be that turn out to not to be trivialities anywhere. Latex is not for casual users, but it is very much not past its expiration date for authors who are serious about typesetting. I'm not making excuses for Latex, nor am I unfairly bashing the alternatives.

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by tomjen3 on Saturday February 19, 2011 @02:27PM (#2239687)
There is a reason Latex doesn't let you put images where you want them, namely that it means it has to skip ahead and leave a blank area on the paper.
Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by larsberg on Saturday February 19, 2011 @09:58AM (#2239102)
Past their expiration date? What about having to do the following every time you add/change a references seems outdated? pdflatex paper && bibtex paper && pdflatex paper && pdflatex paper

:-) TBH, though, there's just no comparison for producing nicely-formatted research papers. Especially in that eye-straining, dual-column, 9pt ACM conference format.

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by likpok on Saturday February 19, 2011 @11:26AM (#2239275)
You should use rubber. It will do all the nasty stuff for you, and make the errors slightly less dumb. Admittedly somewhat poorly named for searching for help on it, but it works.

https://launchpad.net/rubber

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by gnosis on Saturday February 19, 2011 @12:42PM (#2239434)
The last time I tried Rubber, it was way too buggy. So I usually prefer Latexmk:

http://www.phys.psu.edu/~collins/software/latexmk/

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by jedbrown on Saturday February 19, 2011 @12:19PM (#2239366)
Wow, thanks.
Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by ramchip on Saturday February 19, 2011 @05:02PM (#2240042)
I think there's been some serious improvement anyway. Many examples on the Internet use outdated libraries and engines, but if you use modern tools like XeTeX and Biblatex, things get better. For example, using a font with the Opentype features in Xetex and specifying another font for Chinese text is very simple, and since you can do everything in UTF8, there's no need to muck around things like inputenc anymore.

Of course, there are still some ugly corners, and the underlying code isn't always pretty. Things like Luatex sound quite promising in this regard.

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by justincormack on Saturday February 19, 2011 @09:40AM (#2239072)
LuaTeX looks promising, embedding Lua as a scripting language over the underlying algorithms.
Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by chalst on Saturday February 19, 2011 @10:44AM (#2239193)
Luatex is the successor implementation to Pdftex, and it works very well: Context Mk.4 is written as a mixture of Tex and Lua, and is a much cleaner code base than Latex2e.

Pdftex is currently the standard Tex engine for the two main Tex distributions, Texlive and Miktex.

Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by jcw on Saturday February 19, 2011 @11:49AM (#2239319)
Markdown is a good start, the minimal syntax is nice to look at, and it could be poweful with an inline scripting language to define macros (Ruby, Python, Lua).
Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by igneous4 on Saturday February 19, 2011 @03:24PM (#2239811)
Pandoc lets you write in a slightly (and tastefully) enhanced Markdown, but also lets you drop down to write LaTeX macros if you like.
Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by pdw on Saturday February 19, 2011 @09:41AM (#2239077)
TeXmacs aims to be such a tool.
Re:Why I do my resume in LaTeX by chalst on Saturday February 19, 2011 @11:10AM (#2239234)
I have the impression that Texmacs has about as much momentum behind it as Gnu Hurd.